Capital Ships

[primedragoon]

1 – Details on the gameplay purposes you envision with capital ships (ie, how they would relate to the player and a game such as Evochron).

Longer ranges on the drives I'd suggest, to provide better trading opportunities with less travel distance. Jumping between systems without the use of the gates would also be excellent. I imagine combat capitals would be more useful in the advent of defending stations or attempting to destroy them. Carriers and destroyers I think should be restricted to clans for certain. With a minimum membership base... So I suppose this would nessesitate an ingame guild mechanic. For miners I'm sure these things would be glorious beyond all reason. 10 or 20+ slot cargo bays would be awesome, get a book man.

2 – How transferring to/from them would function. And where they would be stored/parked while the player is away.

For the larger ships I'd have to agree, carriers and destroyers you should need to dock and take command of. Maybe authorized players automatically take command of a capital by docking with it, and storing their ship. Ship storage being the trigger, got a new ship now. As for storage, maybe a remote command to jump and shut down. They jump to a random location within range of a 1 sector drive, shut themselves down so nothing can detect them, and automatically put a marker in your map so you can jump to their location.

3 – How combat systems would work (ie, the player directly controls individual cannons or they play themselves and have auto-cannons).

The 3D view we have at the moment would be useful for this. If implimenting both interior and exterior views, the exterior one should be freely turnable like mouselook in the cockpit. The ship will automatically align itself with this point. If the player fires, all the cannons on the side of the ship facing the target open fire. Other cannons operate automatically to target fighters or incoming missiles. Capital, or at least 'larger than fighter caliber' weapons should have a slower speed, so fighters can dodge them easier and maintain some combat balance. Good pilots can stay out of the way well enough, ducking and weaving and such. But one mistake and eating a facefull and you'll be disabled at the least. Also I think larger ships should be limited to partical type and missile weapons, none of the shield depleting lasers. Cite cooling issues or something, but with a large ships power reserves large yield lasers like that would just be unfair. Just fill every turret with them and turn into a giant bug zapper.

4 – Controls systems (direct player control or just point-n-click control console similar to a RTS).

Direct control as described above I think. If you're inside the ship I'd imagine it would work in a similar fashion as it does already, only the turrets would autofire to defend the ship. Maybe the capital class cockpit has a much larger viewing area so you can better view and adjust your course with your big slower responding ship.

5 - How to implement such designs with other player controlled ships to retain balance, challenge, and 'fun' in the game.

Slower weapon speed as I mentioned earlier. Players can already counter missiles fairly well. I'd remove flak from all but the largest player controlled ships. Player skill will adapt without those these coddling them.

Additionally some 'Capital Diver' spec shields or the like could be called for. For heavy fighters who wish to assault capitals alone or in small groups, their front facing shields could be increase by two or three times normal strength so they can take a few hits on a fast pass. Though their damage would have to be limited with so much power in the shield grid.

A few specialist missiles wouldn't go amiss either.

As for how they should be integrated with the rest of the game, well I think to a point you can just scale up a bit. The capital warships we have kicking around are indeed friggin big. But there's no reason nothing in the nature of a compromise can't exist in the gap right?

Say 3 to 5 times the size of the current largest civilian frame. You could have the same types of modules, maybe a bit more complicated, for some larger ships. Say another module type would be a Jump Accelerator, a device which magnifies your jump range by two or three times. (Or more, jumps should take longer though, so high value targets cant just run like hell all time.)

Maybe another device which modifies the pre-existing weapons in a pre-determined manner. Partical cannons would automatically be converted into their larger yield, slower firing, slower speeded counterparts.

Other wise you basically have the same pieces with different shapes. Capital/Large Frame, Large engines, Large Stabalizers/Wings, Large Fuel Cells (<--- Now there's a scary thought, those would cost eh? To fill I mean...) Also with a new module 'scanner systems' perhaps, if its not to hard to impliment, for an even newer and more fun I hope aspect. Deep space exploration! Maybe they give you the ability to detect stars or planets so you can slowly jump in on them, homing in on their position. Personally I find that idea to be one of the most fun.

You could think of them like the semi's of our universe. Only with guns because people try to run us off the road and steal our stuff.

Perhaps they can also equip multiple tractor beams, just so it doesn't take ten years to use an energy converted on their massive fuel tanks. (Still a scary thought, another book sir?)

Capital/Large ship combat between eachother would probably work pretty similar to our current fighter on fighter combat, just scaled up. Maybe add some remote fighter launching and control to change up the strategy a bit.

And just for the record, I would be happy as crap to help beta test these types of ships. I'd like to help balance them against larger merc fighters and such. I think a large fighter type craft like a starmaster geared to take out a capital, should be able to one on one these things not easily but offering both pilots different challenges. I don't think light ships should be able to take them out, outside of a good sized pack.

But honestly I think they'd work great in the end, and we'd have a lot of fun making all our weird and wonky ships with the civvy ship builder system, we could make some really unique and fun ships. And useful as well.

I think some changes to AI behavior would be useful around them as well. Like those of us with these types of large ships have to deal with more danger more often. We get attacked a bit more often by fighter groups, since its harder to run away, trade dedicated ships would obviously be targets. You could use the same system with 0 cargo space to make some pretty dangerous gunboats, but they wouldn't be able to match the fighters pure acceleration, so they can defend but not track and destroy fighters.

Fighters have more freedom, large ships and capitals have more resources, and higher danger versus reward. Harder to run. That brings up the charging jumpdrive thing I mentioned earlier too! Oh, and we should definitely have some equip on fighters that disables capital jump drives in a 3000 meter radius or something.

In the end if players are well rewarded for the risks they take attempting to take out the capital or large ship, totally worth it in my opinion. 10- 20 stacks of 25 of plat, diamond gold or another high value item would definitely be worth it. Also I think large ships like these would be the only ones detectable during jumps. That offers fighters an additional layer of attraction and protection.

Someone here mentioned extending stealth field use to an insane amount. And hour I think? And I think it operates now for 180 seconds was it? I think ten minutes would be more than adiquate for a stealth run. However I believe some dedicated countermeasure to this is also warranted. Not something that completely prevents it, but perhaps a low level static field that alerts the ship if a stealthed object comes within 1000 meters.

PS: Another note on capital ship and large ship movement, when I mentioned earlier that the capital should automatically orient to the camera, I mean to suggest that capitals should turn more slowly than fighters. Not unreasonably so but more slowly. I think it should work the same way on smaller capitals, frigate sized and under even, to compliment the use of the multiple turret use. Even if the ship easily keeps up with the camera orientation.

Also I don't think large ships, frigate and under basically, should have docks for fighters. I think they're size should be able to accomodate normal docking. You'd just need to be careful. Would it be an unreasonable amount of work to add another dock at the bottom of stations for the capital ship to dock? The models seem pretty straightforward.

[Edited on 10-10-2012 by primedragoon]


Edit it again WHEEE! I remembered this ship, its from another game but its a fairly loose example of what I mean.




There's a front bridge and crew area, a central segment with cargo bays mounted and engines at the rear. I imagine with your system and a similar parts implimentation we could make some pretty unique looking, and performing ships. God how I'd love to see that, but make no mistake, I'll be playing either way.

Also there should probably be a few preconfigured location for turrets. And every configuration should have advantages and disadvantages. Maybe it goes around the front and either side, and has an open rear. Maybe its ringed around the center so the front and rear are open in small areas. Maybe its banded around the rear. I also think some items just shouldn't work for large or capital ships. Like stealth devices... A bloody stealth carrier is sure as hell gonna give you a heart attack, any day of the week.



Also a side note, and personal request. I've noticed all the wings tend to be horizontal planed and broken up into sets of one, two, or three. It'd be nice to see some vertical configurations. And some quad configurations.
.....l....
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.....l....
.....l....

^--- These would look awesome with the quad engine setups.

Another edit... Large/Capital ships should also require a crew compliment. The captain should always be the pilot, so no need for a new crew class there. But there should be someone who enables progressively more efficient use of large jump drives, and inter system jumps shouldn't be possible at all without this crew member. Also for weapons, an engineer for shields and engines, a life support specialist, a science officer as is already there, ect.

Also I don't think large ships should be able to jump with pinpoint accuracy, I think there should be a fairly large margin of error. Things that big are harder to control no?

[Edited on 10-10-2012 by primedragoon]

[Edited on 10-10-2012 by primedragoon]

[Edited on 10-10-2012 by primedragoon]

[Edited on 10-10-2012 by primedragoon]

[Edited on 10-10-2012 by primedragoon]

[-splosives-]

If cap ships were available in EM, I wouldn't really want to fly with them myself, or fight with them. Fighting with cap ships would take away all the skill and tactics, since you'll be a lot less maneuvreable. Basically, you'll just be sitting there, firing all your cannons and maybe slowly turning yourself for some slight tactical advantage. But this is nothing compared to the skill, tactics and fun you have when fighting in a fighter or civ ship.

What I would see cap ships do is being controllable moving/jumping stations where you can refuel and stock a lot of cargo while being able to defend themselves from attackers. The cap ships could prove to give tactical advantage in a fighter battle, but not really participate in them actively. Kind of like how they are in Arvoch alliance: They follow you around, but they don't really get anything done.

I'd go for a more RTS like approach for the cap ships (or both player controlled and remote controlled). They're cool to have, but most likely not fun to fly/fight with.

Some more things to considder:
How would they refuel? (maybe players buying fuel at stations and delivering it to the ship)
How much fuel would they use? (probably more than a civ ship)
What would be their top speed? (they shouldn't have a top speed, just a faster decrease in acceleration I guess)
What happens if they go into atmosphere? (they probably crash/blow up)
Where do you get them? (special stations? constructor stations?)
What do you need to make them? (money/materials)
What happens to them if you leave them alone?

[primedragoon]

If cap ships were available in EM, I wouldn't really want to fly with them myself, or fight with them. Fighting with cap ships would take away all the skill and tactics, since you'll be a lot less maneuvreable. Basically, you'll just be sitting there, firing all your cannons and maybe slowly turning yourself for some slight tactical advantage. But this is nothing compared to the skill, tactics and fun you have when fighting in a fighter or civ ship.

When I was outlining whats up above there, my thought process was more along the lines of how to keep the combat challenging and balance it against the fighters. I think cap ships should have about 3/4ths the turn speed of the heaviest civillian ships. And obviously if a civshipyard design is layed out for them, this could be effected by other things as well. I agree that the largest of cap ships wouldn't be very fun, which is why I say destroyers and carriers should be clans only. Used in large groups versus a defended station or another cap ship, those very large ships could be a lot of fun, but not so much flying around alone trying to get things done. Here's what I imagine.

Size relations below. Military Ships to Civilian Ships, to 'Large Ships' to full on national capital ships.

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As you can see, the full on capital size at the bottom wouldn't be a lot of fun outside of large fleet battles, can't get a lot done with it normally. Its utility is limited. But smaller ships, packing more range, firepower, cargoroom, and mildly decreased speed would keep the dynamics nice and balanced. 3/4ths turn speed to the heaviest civ ship and probably a max of 400 speed on normal IDS being the fastest example of one of these. These are the one thats would benefit from blind spots and such in combat balancing and seriously, who wants to rely on jump gates to get between systems?

And as I said above, the exploration would be bloody amazing with one of these. I'd really love to see that. A mixed fleet of these and fighters would be a hell of a lot of fun in combat too.

What I would see cap ships do is being controllable moving/jumping stations where you can refuel and stock a lot of cargo while being able to defend themselves from attackers. The cap ships could prove to give tactical advantage in a fighter battle, but not really participate in them actively. Kind of like how they are in Arvoch alliance: They follow you around, but they don't really get anything done.

For the super large ones yeah, I'd have to agree. But the smaller ones, frigate class and below, the ones using the civvy shipyard system, they'd be a lot more flexible and fun to use. In my opinion.

I'd go for a more RTS like approach for the cap ships (or both player controlled and remote controlled). They're cool to have, but most likely not fun to fly/fight with.

Here I have to disagree, while the smaller examples would obviously be easier to control, being more maneuverable and all, even the larger ones would be fun to fly in combat. Myself, I'd like to see them being just fast enough with just enough turn radius to turn the occasional inattentive fighter into a small smudge on the windscreen.

Some more things to considder:
How would they refuel? (maybe players buying fuel at stations and delivering it to the ship)

It would be nice if a docking 'field' for large ships like this could be included in stations. If not then yes, I'd imagine fuel would have to be ferried, and the fuel converter would be an even more coveted item. Which is why I mentioned before that having capitals able to use more than a single tractor beam would be helpful, it's still going to take a hellishly long time to refuel. But hopefully a fully stocked capital would be good for a while when full up. The smaller more controllable examples I'm hoping will be able to dock using normal docking rings, with some caution.

How much fuel would they use? (probably more than a civ ship)

The largest container for a civ ship is something like 4000 units right? Double the consumption, so double the fuel containers size. Say the smallest fuel tank would be 6000, and probably go up to 120000 for the largest. With a larger cargo/trading capacity, it shouldn't be too hard to keep one of the smaller versions fueled up. The capitals would likely be more of an issue, though I'd imagine their engines would barely be ticking over outside of combat.

What would be their top speed? (they shouldn't have a top speed, just a faster decrease in acceleration I guess)

The top for fighters and civvies is 8000 right? 6000 probably for smaller caps like frigs and maybe cruisers, 4000 for carriers and destroyers.

What happens if they go into atmosphere? (they probably crash/blow up)

Yeah, I'd imagine they blow up. The planets gravity should overpower their stupidly powerful engines because of their even stupider mass, so they blow up. When they hit the ground...

Where do you get them? (special stations? constructor stations?)

Constructor stations would work for the really big ones eh? If the civvy system already in place were used, and secondary larger docks were added at the bottom of stations, then light class capital ships could be available pretty much everywhere.

What do you need to make them? (money/materials)

Fusions generators, a lot of metals, probably good hunks of plat and gold for the electronics, lots of cash for the assembly. And probably a good 200000 units of fuel for large capitals, to fuel the imaginary little space utility vehicles assembling your pet monster.

What happens to them if you leave them alone?

I like the 'fly away and stay somewhere' idea I put up earlier. Just tell them to go somewhere and shut down, fuel stops being used and the ship just idles over while you're away. Assuming you can't store them in a dock or something, which would be better.

Carriers and Destroyers should be full time entities though, either way. Can't have people stashing those big targets away if they're losing or sommat.

[Edited on 10-10-2012 by primedragoon]

[-splosives-]

Just so you know, I only had the current capital ship models in mind (those of arvoch alliance/evochron expansion), so I did not consider the option of frigate/corvette class ships. I guess the Stations will need a different docking bay for those, because the docking bays in the expansion really can't fit anything larger than a civ ship.
by 3/4 turn speed of the heaviest civ ship, does that mean with class1 or class 13 wings? I'd say class1.
I'm still unsure if cap ships would be a good idea though. I think a cap ship is only useful if you could command a whole fleet to accompany it. what's the point of a carrier if you only have 1 ship.
If the whole "1 cap ship per clan" thing would be implemented, that would mean the clan system should be completely redesigned. Also, who would own the ship if it's from a clan? where does it stay if that person is offline? what if that player plays singleplayer?
I think the only real option for controllable cap ships would be the smaller frigate classes. or perhaps a corvette class.

[Marvin]

Clans would have about as many capital ships in their inventory as General Electric has aircraft carriers in today's world.

[primedragoon]

Is it possible to mod in new items on the civvy ship customization list? I'd like to try my hand at once of the smaller examples, like a corvette or a light frigate. But a customizable civillian type. Though I guess it'll be what it is since its just an example, not a whole suete of new items, and honestly I think the system would have to have a bit more range than 25 to -25 to make a properly configured/sized light capital ship.

[sapperhedge]

I like the idea of the different classes of cap type ships.

For the non gate system to system jumps the game could basically use the same long rage jump system that is already there for the defend contracts. You have a set time once initiated that stops the weapons systems from working as all the energy is being passed to the jump system.

A lot might need to be changed but you could even do some sort of auto turret as a equipment hard point giving some choice between utility/freight/miner to frigate/combat.

[Marvin]

You could mod one of the heavier civilian ships but you'd still be limited to one cannon, one laser and a single volley of missiles. Ergo, it wouldn't be the kind of setup Honor Harrington was used to. Except maybe the part about shooting from the hip.

[primedragoon]

I'm not looking to change the gameplay mechanic at the moment, I'm just interested to know how large of a ship you could make and still be capable of docking, if carefully. Honestly I'd like the minimize the amount of work into implimenting something like this, if possible, the less work Vice has to do the more likely it'll happen right? And I honestly love the idea. My mind has been on overdrive for how gameplay mechanics would work for a while. I even considered your one cannon, one laser, statement. The portion of the game doesn't even have to be changed, if you have cannon hardpoints. Just have two slots available for two cannons max, and have the facing turret fire it as normal. With the large yield transformer I suggested earlier, these two mild modifications should make it possible to impliment light capital class vessels with at least less fuss. I'd hope anyways.

I can understand larger ships being a longer project for certain though, if you want to give multiple players cannon control in a carrier or the like.

[Marvin]

Using the specifications for one of the large frames (slow turn rate, heavy armor and shielding), you can build your own ship and substitute it for the default. You can even construct your own cockpit to give your custom ship more of a bridge or command post feel. But, if you want a turret gun, you'll need to go into multiplayer and convince another pilot to sit in your gunner's seat.

[Zaron]

Indeed, it hasn't really been on the drawing board for the game. I'm not necessarily against the idea of capital ships in the game, but there are some considerations (and I would also recommend you review some of the previous discussions on the topic). In particular, here are some considerations to provide your thoughts on just how such ships could be incorporated into the game:

1 – Details on the gameplay purposes you envision with capital ships (ie, how they would relate to the player and a game such as Evochron).
2 – How transferring to/from them would function. And where they would be stored/parked while the player is away.
3 – How combat systems would work (ie, the player directly controls individual cannons or they play themselves and have auto-cannons).
4 – Controls systems (direct player control or just point-n-click control console similar to a RTS).
5 - How to implement such designs with other player controlled ships to retain balance, challenge, and 'fun' in the game.

So beyond just flying big ships for the sake of flying big ships, these kinds of areas are of interest to me from a gameplay and functionality perspective.

[Edited on 4-13-2012 by Vice]

I think the game that did capital ships the best was the Escape Velocity series by Ambrosia Software. There is a tried and true classic right there. Sure, the game is old, it is 2D and not 3D like most space sims these days, and is single player only, but that game had it all. You start in a small shuttlecraft, and from there you can work your way up to a better ship, and while you can go for a single fighter if you want (like the Lightning) you can also get a large freighter early on (like the Argosy). After that, you can start buying augmentations to turn your craft into a formidable warship, and you can even buy a fighter bay (like the Hawk fighter bay). Once you have multiple millions of credits to spend, you can buy yourself a Kestrel. It comes with a lightning fighter bay and 4 fighters. Say you want a fleet to go with your nice shiny ship? You can attack and disable other ships, board them, and then you have the option to plunder credits, the cargo, the ammo, or attempt to capture the ship. If you successfully capture it, you add it to your fleet of escorts at no cost, meaning you just effectivly enslaved the ship's crew. Still not powerful or grandiose enough for you? To heck with just flying a single capital ship, how about flying around in a Confederate Cruiser with a fleet of Confed Frigates in tow? And then you have another fleet in your pocket, because you have carried fighters you can launch. The purpose? To dominate planets of course. What mercenary doesn't want the government of an entire planet paying them tribute? You can demand tribute from a planet or station and if you can destroy its defense fleet, they become dominated and pay you tribute untill you release them.

As far as how the guns on a capital ship work, turrets always fire in the direction of the ship you have targeted, and stationary guns always fire forward. This is universal no matter the size or class of ship you are flying.

How would one balance all this in multiplayer? I have no clue, but then again I don't think space trading and combat sims lend themselves very well to multiplayer. I have yet to play a space sim's multiplayer and enjoy it as much as the single player. It's the reason why Jumpgate Evolution is vaporware, why Black Prophecy got shut down, and why Eve Online's player base in terms of size can't hold a candle to World of Warcraft or League of Legends. The multiplayer in Freelancer was ok, but it didn't hold me. I think space sims work best as a single player quest for power, glory, and personal gratification, and they do this well. I think multiplayer balance is a major barrier to some of the cooler stuff that space sims can do, but if you go single player only then you can put whatever you want in the game.

How would one fit all that in Evochron Mercenary? Again, I have no clue. I have been waiting for someone to make a modern, 3D version of Escape Velocity, and EM is so close, yet still not quite. I do like the game though!

[jeremyhak2]

Hey everyone! I'm Jeremy and I've been a long time forum lurker here, but have been playing Evochron Mercenary for about half a year now. I can definitely say that there is no other space game that is as much fun as this . After the expansion was released, all I can say when I enter the game with widescreen dual monitors, TrackIR and 5.1 surround sound, is WOW ! After half a year of gameplay and forum lurking, I've figured it's about time I joined in with the discussions.

Regarding Player-Controllable Capital Ships:

I am definitely most interested with the addition of player-controllable cap ships. It would add more variety and content to this game, as I believe Evochron at the moment is slightly lacking in depth of content. Sure, we have a multitude of options for buying different ships, but they are essentially more or less the same but only different in stats. Adding larger battleships and similar ships will make galactic battles more fun as we now can add in other elements of gameplay such as RTS and hopefully new tactics.

My suggestions are beyond any doubt asking for too much, but it's an area where Evochron Mercenary can grow and add depth into (hey, if you can include terrain walkers in a combat/trading simulation, why not player-controllable cap ships?). It will definitely attract new players as there is no modern space game/sim out there with such a feature.

1. Capital Ships should essentially be significantly underpowered in order to maintain balance, but relies on heavily on the use of a fleet of fighters/multiplayer pilots to successfully complete a mission/contract.

-Their missiles should be slow with poor maneuvering, but make a strong impact to an enemy ship's hull should one hit.
-The primary weapon of a cap ship will be the use of multiple particle cannons surrounding the ship (auto-controlled by poor AI) and be able to be manually manned by the mercenary.
-Piloting the capital ship should be a direct control thing, not a point-and-click. They are slow, poorly maneuverable, and relies on missiles + particle cannons to support and give fighters an edge in combat. Sure piloting this may bore others as it is probably better to be in a fighter, but it may also interest others at the same time for those that want to pilot a capital ship Players would probably be sitting behind a manned particle cannon pounding away anyways.

2. Has anyone heard of Star Citizen? If anyone has watched the tech demo, the game is supposedly featuring dockable ships to a player-controllable carrier. It would be nice to incorporate a similar concept to that, by being able to pilot a carrier but being able to jump into one of the carrier's multiple fighter spacecraft (of course spacecraft that you own) to assist in combat.

-The carrier is only there to assist in a combat situation and not actively participating in the attack itself (as Splosives said). The carrier will be able to fend off any enemy fighters, but again relies on a fleet of fighters to have any chance of significant firepower.
-There main purpose is to transport a set of multiple fighters that are AI controlled (but you can hop in one of them, assuming you bough the fighter already) and to refuel/repair. This is where the RTS type of gameplay comes in.
-Similar to regular capital ships but instead also have the ability to dock ships (as such requiring a higher cost to obtain the carrier itself).

3. Regarding with use for clans and multiplayer use, there should a limit to how many carriers, capital ships, frigates etc.. that one clan can have.

-In single-player, there is a limit to how many large-classed ships one can buy.
-When transitioning to multiplayer, their single-player carriers/cap ships as well as the AI fleet are temporarily unavailable to them, but if they are part of a clan, then they may choose to use the clan's fleet at the clan's discretion.
-Pilots not in a clan are not allowed to command/pilot a carrier or cap ship.
-Any player can dock into any carrier. (Trying to dock into an enemy clan's carrier will get you destroyed, anyways).

This ensures that game balance is still maintained, and a choatic thing where everyone is piloting a carrier is avoided. This also encourages a co-op type of gameplay where it is encouraged to fight alongside a friend.

4. Of course capital ships are suppose to crash/burn/explode when they enter a planet! They have large mass, so they shall stay in space.

5. High costs. At some point with enough gameplay time, one is bound to end up with loads and loads of credits. These ships should have a cost in the hundred millions that give the game currency more meaning to it. I don't think we should be able to construct it, but that is up to discussion.

5. Capital Ships/Carriers can be repaired/refueled by means of a mobile repair/refuel unit when you are x distance from a station.

6. Storing/Retrieving the ships can be from the hanger bay of one the space stations. It simply encourages one to build more space stations

-Storing a cap ship will take up all the hanger bays
-There is a higher cost in storing the ship per cycle.

Again, this is just a set of ideas that can be worked with and I definitely do not expect any of these to be included in the game at all, considering the difficulty in coding it. But variety is always good in a space sim

[PlasmaJedi]

I understand the fancy of these ideas here, but I understand a bit of how programming works, and so, I have a few suggestions of my own.

A simpler fix to bring cap ships into the game easier would be making it like a summonable unit. You could call in your ship and bam! reinforcements! But obviously, that would be a lot less fun. But it would make it easier to keep track of it without it having to constantly follow you around the universe. We already have a stretch to the laws of physics when building stations. BUT there should be some kinda persistent way to have it always located, unlike a summon monster that doesn't exist until summoned. But when it becomes solid, physical, useable, it must be summoned. But maybe when you have not used it long enough, or traveld enough sectors away it cannot be processed anymore, it 'goes into nearby space', and loiters, and thus does not need to be run as if it existed by the game system, and its just 'there', until you call it. There would need to be a way to have it travel with you, like perhaps some kind of instructions sent to it. It wouldn't make sense to use it in Sierra, then jumpgate down to the southern systems, then travel to Sol, THEN summon it like it was just 3 sectors away... Nope. Dumb. Maybe tell it to go to any gated system, which it does mysteriously after a minute or two, then its on call.

But, then you could get in it and control it, by docking, somehow. I would like to point out, cap ships really aren't that strong, if you know how to fight them and have a decent ship, so, player caps should be modded to be stronger somehow. Probably better anti-fighter weapons, and much harder to kill. Perhaps they could have some kind of never-die policy, like, they get wounded and run away. It'd suck real bad to bring your cap ship tp a PvP, then watch a rubber chicken blow your multi-million-dollar investment to hades! Seriously, any experienced player knows the biggest danger to fighting a cap ship is the escorts. With a good mil frame and a good shield and AMS, plus the right angle to attack from, you're much harder to kill than the cap ship.

But controlling it gives you nice bonuses! Like lots and lots of HP, storage space, missile slots, and a much larger jump drive distance? I don't think Vice is looking forward to re-writing the whole gameplay engine to add some of the suggestions requested, so I say, lets work with the seeds he left. We can already 'become' a Terrain walker, leaving our ship somewhere, 'cloaked', so perhaps then, when you summon your cap ship (a clone of existing cap ships) you get close enough and can 'enter' it, and your ship vanishes, and you 'become' a cap ship, placed in the same spot the ship was in when you docked. He already has a system where you can become a gunner of another player, so ONLY if a player has entered his own cap ship, others may enter it, and work some of the guns. Perhaps any hired AI could enter the ship, but maybe not let them shoot, just be stored in it. Then they enter when you do, or when maybe you give an order. This could let a clan all group up in the clan leader's cap ship and enter the system, and pour out of it to launch the attack, or something similar for SP players and their hirelings.

Maybe there is a limit of 1 cap ship per player, which can be sold or replaced, to get a better model or something. Since we have a way to store loot in a station, indefinitely, for a fee, as well as ships, then the cap ship can be made a special space to store loot and ships, up to a limit. I suggest a cap ship carries 20 slots of cargo, maybe around 3 stored ship slots. And since you own it, you don't pay by the cargo or ship. You may have a steady 'upkeep cost', or payment for whatever crew is needed on board, but it shouldn't be too complicated. I should have a truckload of a fuel tank, and can trade that to player ships. Trade station docking should be getting close enough to the station and activating the ship-to-ship trade button, which now only works on stations when in the cap ship. Players can trade with a player owned cap ship only when the player's in it, and they dock with it. I could have more equipment slots, but its not necessary, altho if it can gather fuel on its own, it should have a way to do this faster, in proportion to the huge tank. Whether by fuel generator, or by collecting hydrogen. Here's an idea, maybe a cap ship only BUILT IN fuel generator? such that it can sit idle and generate fuel from its energy supply, like the stations you can summon with a deploy constructor. Maybe cap ships have no tractor beams, and so instead of a beam/converter combo, just a 'converter array', that lets it loiter in a sun's corona, and absorb mass amounts of fuel! Maybe have cap-ship only equipments, for optional coolness? like that generator, like a better-than-mantis drive, some delux shield unit, etc. The reason I say maybe not more than 8 equips, is because you won't need the same kinds of equipment for a starfighter, like a class 5 shield battery?... not strong enough! ha! It should be able to carry more missiles, tho. How about 16? Then one could equip 2 excals, or lots of custom missiles of choice, stealth pods, sensor probes, etc.

Here is a summary of a practical use: I'm a helluva wealthy merc, and I want to craft my own missiles, lots of em! I have my battle frame stored in my cap ship, but my merc/mining frame I choose to use. I get near the asteroid field, and summon my cap ship, which was left in the system somewhere, hiding just outside of the populated sectors. After maybe 30 seconds, it warps in, maybe a kilometer or two away. Maybe then it tries to move to my position, until it gets close to the field. I can give it orders like AI wingmen. I go into the field, deploy a mining probe and start my own mining. If I happen to be in, say, Pearl, my cap ship blows away all the reds who hate me, while I get to business. If not, it just waits, looking awesome. As I fill my holds, I dock with the ship and transfer my cargo. Maybe I can target it and use f4? then I go back, until the mining probe is done, which I then gather all my loot and dump it into the cap ships 20 holds. Then I board the ship, and fly toward the nearest trade station. Maybe I use the jump drive, maybe cap ship drives take time to charge? might be cool. So we get there, I use f4 on the station, enter it and build my favorite missile class with the mass amounts of cargo I gathered. I fill all 16 hardpoints and then store some from my mil frame. Once I'm done, I exit the ship with my fighter, and trade with it to load up some new missiles. I then place a waypoint and tell my cap to fly to it, which is across the sector, so it jumps, then I look on the map, see the marker for my cap ship, jump to it, and join it. I did this because I can Then I get in the ship, zoom the map out and jump to the nearby star. I pull into the corona, enter a parking orbit somehow, and hit the fuel collectors.

After we're full, I tell it to go to another system. It goes thru jumpgates, but when told to, we don't actually see that, it just hypers out and goes. it'll take about a minute or so. I then head to the nearest gate and go myself. I can then summon it there, but if I left it in the previous system, I'd have to not only wait the summon time, but also the transit time. Or I could have gotten in it and actually used the gates myself.

So, I want to go to a warzone. I went to the warzone system, call in my ship, and it loiters 'on the outskirts', as in, its 'here', just not 'right here where I can see', so when I get that destroy cap ship contract, I can call it in to open up on it. Unless told to follow me, it stays there, until I call it in elsewhere, for the next contract. I could hyper back to my cap ship, for fuel or more missiles, or just let it stay until I call it for the next contract.

Now I want to go to Sol. I can either get in the ship, and jumpgate down to whatever jump-off system I want to go to, or tell it to go, and meet it there. Here's the cool part: The cap ship's tanks are huge, and its jump drive has a long reach. The hope is, I get there faster than if I went by myself, and don't run completely out of fuel in the process. I would hope Vice could make the map extend out 1 more zoom level while in the cap ship. And if I'm online, and have any buddies with me, they can ride in the ship with me.

Now, lets say, I want to fly my cap ship into battle? I would want to give it a pair of large, slow, beefed up fusion cannons. Like, two hits pwns any ordinary merc ship. TRUST ME, it SHOULD be powerful! It'll cost like crazy to get a cap ship, and in PVP, players can gang up on it, and not just send some hotshot to sit behind the engines and shoot it till it goes boom. Agreed, no beam lasers. These cannons would probably be a whole new class of weapons, for cap ships, unequipable on fighters, and maybe manufacturable? The pilot fires the missile stock (if not able for 2 excals, how about a cap-excal?), and perhaps at least to auto-guns, such that they can cover prettymuch everything with no blind spots? Gunners can either use their own ships' weapons, or use a NOT auto gun mounted into the cap ship, which would not rival the sheer power of the main gun, but still be strong. Maybe that main gun has a longer range?

And if the cap ship dies, we may have a problem. I've never played a game where a big slow enemy was hard to kill by a fast small one. If a cap ship was not able to defend itself well enough, it'll be an easy, COSTLY target to lose. So, maybe a system where it is just damaged and retreats? SINCE it does not need the player inside it, it will not result in a game over when it dies, so then the player may not just reload and get it back, like his own ship. Something will have to be thought up.

Now, it might also be cool to have missions against actual stations, but perhaps that, when I station is destroyed by one of these missions, it is rebuilt automatically after some minutes? like maybe 20? Sounds fast, but think up how easy it is to gather an equal amount to rebuild one manually, with some of the epic trade routs in this game? A destroyed station doesn't cease to exist, anything stored in it, owned by players will still be there when it returns. Station defense would be an epic battle such that cap ships would be helpful with. Or, you could just have the mission contract spawn a different kind of station (like a pirate base or something) such that we can have epic fun without breaking the economy?

Well, that's my opinion. I really don't want to sound arrogant, but I think it's more doable with the current system, than with some of the other ideas suggested. Programming is hard, and some of these ideas require a totally different system than what exists now in EM.

[primedragoon]

I have been away for a bit, and not the least happy about it. But I'm back now, and more than happy to be here again. And to gravedig this topic. Any chance of a few words from you Vice? I'd dearly love to see this happen, oh yes. And it looks like a few others are interested too. And considering my rising interest in the games multiplayer aspect, I imagine this could get really really fun, given a chance. Sort of like eve, but without the retarded RTS controls that place you outside of control of your own ship.

[PlasmaJedi]

It's my understanding that Vice has some kind of 'if they really want it they'll email" policy. At least it seemed so when we were talking about Gravity. Maybe you should email him? This is no small tweak, understand you're asking a lot of the guy!

[Vice]

I did post some questions and comments on the topic in this thread on 04-13 and 04-14 (page 1) indicating some points of concern and consideration for developing such options. Feedback relating to those points specifically would be best.

Depending on how so many different elements were to be integrated into the game, it would likely require signficant rewrites of existing sections of the codebase plus a number of 'from scratch' systems coded for the game, something I don't have much time for at the moment. But like I said earlier in this thread, I'm not necessarily against the idea of piloting capital ships in the game. There are just a lot of pieces that would need to fall in place for relevant integration plus time and resources to work on it. As such, it may be something that's more feasible for a different game project in the future designed for such options from the ground up.

[-splosives-]

I've been playing some X3 lately, and I do like flying around in cap ships there. But in that game it makes more sense because you can have a whole fleet instead of one ship.
Also the flight mechanics are not newtonian, so it flies a lot different.
I'd like to try flying in a cap ship in inertial space though.

But I think, while evochron is a mostly player skill based game, x3 is more like "a bigger ship is better" kind of game. So I wonder how a capital ship would benefit the player in a skill based environment.

Would be cool if we could design our own capital ships, just like the civilian ships. Outfit it with loads of particle cannons and beams and stuff.
A lot of customization should be involved in the creation of capital ships. Also the ability to choose your type of ship: Cruiser, destroyer, freighter, carrier.
These should also each have different properties.

And oh yeah, make them REEAAALLY expensive, so we have something to do with our billions of cash.

[SeeJay]

The coolest thing would be to have your own capital ship and your fighter/civil ships docked inside it.
(kind of your own flying garage!):D

Friends could dock and man the guns for defense if you're under attack.

[Dingo]

My ideal game is a capital ship simulator. However, I still don't think EM is the environment for it. Capital ships should have large crews and stations and all kinds of things that are outside the scope of EM. Automated capital ships are kinda lame.

I do admit that others may have better ideas about how to go about than I do though.

[PlasmaJedi]

@Dingo

Have you played the Battlecruiser series?

The creator released some of his game for free since they are too old to be worth buying. The latest free one is Universal Combat. I bring it up because he did EXACTLY what you are asking, except there's one problem...

It isn't really that much fun. Too much management, not enough explodey, and the AI is so dumb, if you ever do ground ops, you will have your ships taking damage just by TOUCHING the ground, and I always worry one of them will nosedive into oblivion and I need to go buy another. Repairs take forever, and parts are expensive. You can only get free repairs at the starting Galcom Station, but it'll take so long, you'll probably just start the repairs, then leave, and have your own engineers finish in-flight.

I swear, when I saw this whole concept, I almost wet myself, but... Well,... days later, I had yet to find the fun part. I think the creator was too smart for his own good, and forgot to add the fun.

[Edited on 3-15-2013 by PlasmaJedi]

[Nubarus]

[Edited on 3-16-2013 by thetiebers]

[Edited on 3-16-2013 by Nubarus]

[PlasmaJedi]

From everything I've heard, you're exactly right.

I can picture him saying to me, "Fun? FUN? You wanted FUN?!?! Go play ASS-TEROIDS!"

So, since you evidently met him online, is this correct? Judging by the way he makes his games, I'd think so. They are all very particular, exact, and often sloppy on anything but details. I've read some of his stuff on his site, and he has grand visions, but is too anal it seems to make them actually as awesome as he dreams.

Anyway, enough said about him. This is about cruisers in EM, and I said my piece up the page a bit. I would personally rather see cap ships have some kind of background status, so they don't follow you around all day, but can be around at a moment's notice. I really think we shouldn't get it too complicated, because this game ISN'T Battlecruiser! lol!

[Edited on 3-15-2013 by PlasmaJedi]

[Edited on 3-16-2013 by thetiebers]

[Dingo]

@Dingo

Have you played the Battlecruiser series?

The creator released some of his game for free since they are too old to be worth buying. The latest free one is Universal Combat. I bring it up because he did EXACTLY what you are asking, except there's one problem...

It isn't really that much fun. Too much management, not enough explodey, and the AI is so dumb, if you ever do ground ops, you will have your ships taking damage just by TOUCHING the ground, and I always worry one of them will nosedive into oblivion and I need to go buy another. Repairs take forever, and parts are expensive. You can only get free repairs at the starting Galcom Station, but it'll take so long, you'll probably just start the repairs, then leave, and have your own engineers finish in-flight.

I swear, when I saw this whole concept, I almost wet myself, but... Well,... days later, I had yet to find the fun part. I think the creator was too smart for his own good, and forgot to add the fun.

[Edited on 3-15-2013 by PlasmaJedi]

Yes I had this. I think Marvin even beta tested it. Great concept but the implementation was abysmal, really. I think something that ambitious needs a team, not just a one-man show.

Which is why I think Vice was so smart in improving his game in a modular fashion over time, and why I am leery of adding pilot-able cap ships into EM.

[Nubarus]

[Edited on 3-16-2013 by thetiebers]

[Edited on 3-16-2013 by Nubarus]

[Rubber Chicken]

As far as Cap ship killing goes, if you've tried it with the current build and find it to be anywhere near the realm of Easy, you are obviously on the level of an ACE pilot no one else will ever come to equalling!

Paganini was said to have made many expert violinists break their violins over their knee and swear off ever playing again. (He was that good) Good thing you keep your awesome skills on the down-low, or we'd have players - new and veteran alike - swearing off EM and being forced to delude themselves into thinking Angry Birds is a Flight Sim!

I recently posted my observations on Cap killing in the Beta tester's forum:

1 Evoch-C (Me) vs. 1 - Von-C

Weapon load-out: Max output Custom Fusion cannon / Max output Custom Fusion beam weapon, Excalibur missile pack.

Most effective strategy: Blind, dogged, determination and 20 - 30 minutes of trying to crack the shields and do damage whilst avoiding DEATH! :P:P