...to clarify weapons maths

[Triton83]

I made this thread to join the debate between Splosives and Maarshalk on this thread, as it doesn't concern the original thread subject.

These are based on a custom setting for the Flare Beam Cannon
at yield 39, RPM 442/8 milliseconds, H/S 110, E/S 13, Range 750.

Rounds Per Minute = 442/8 milliseconds = 55.25/1 millisecond

39Y x 55.25/milliseconds=2154.75 x 1000 = 2,154,750/second

So the total yield for RPM=2,154,750/Minute. So you are right,
I meant per Minute not per Second.

So per second the yield would be 2,154,750/60=35,912.5 assuming the 39 yield is per shot fired......:P

I'm sorry, but your calculations are entirely wrong.
If you want to calculate yield per minute, just multiply rounds per minute with yield.
10 yield
442 rpm
4420 yield/minute

with 39 yield this makes 17238 ypm

think of it this way: how can 1 second of flarebeam have more yield than a nuke?
Every ship would die in less than a second of gunfire.
But that doesn't happen.

[Edited on 1-21-2013 by -splosives-]

Check the tables on SeeJay's Website that I posted.
Also your calculation for 4420 yield Per minute x 39yield is wrong in 2 ways.

1. 4420 x 39 = 172,380 and not 17,238. Your missing a 0!

2. Rounds Per Minute fired are 442 per a cycly of 8 milliseconds. 1 milisecond is 1/1000 of a second. So in a cycle rate at 8/1000 of a second the Rounds Fired are 442 Per Minute. And in 1 millisecond of the cycle rate the Rounds Per Minute Fired would be 442 divided by 8 milliseconds= 55.25/1 Rounds Per Minute Fired in 1/1000 of a second of the cycle rate.

So the Yield Per Minute of Continues Fire =((55.25 x 1000ms) x 39) = 2,154,750 (Two million one hundred fifty four thousand seven hundred and fifty!)

Other methods of Calculation would be Yield Per Second of Fire(((442/0.008s)/60) x 39) = 35,912.5

or 2,154,750/60 = 35,912.5 (Thirty five thousand nine hundred and twelve and a half!)

I believe that Rounds Per minute are Shots fired per Minute
So 442 divided by 60 seconds = 7.367 Shots per second per 8 milliseconds cycle rate. = 7.367 divided by 8 milliseconds(0.008)
times 39 yield = 35,912.5!......




[Edited on 1-22-2013 by Maarschalk]

1. Maarshalk you are multiplying wrong things ! Splosives said that 442 rounds fired in a minute have 4420 total yield if each round has a yield of 10.

442 rounds x 10 yield = 4420 total yield

Then he said that if each round deals 39 you'll get 442 rounds x 39 yield = 17238 total yield

You can't multiply the first example result with another yield! It means nothing


2. You make many strange calculations! You can't multiply or divide things like this Moreover, you simply can not consider cyclerate for yield over time calculation. Vice said:

2 - C is indeed the cycle rate. C decreases because it is a rough estimate of the time in between shots in milliseconds. So the lower the number, the faster the cannon is firing.

Now consider this: if I shoot 442 times in a minute, I'll have 442 cycles of 8 ms between each shot. 442 x 8 = 3536 ms of total time between all shots fired during a minute. A minute is 60000 ms... So there are many other unknown parameters to consider if you want to use cycle rate in your calculations. The shot itself takes time. You can approximatively calculate it. If I'm correct:

RPM x C + RPM x t = 60000 (where t is the shot time)
=> t = (60000 - C x RPM)/RPM

Remember that C is a "rough estimated of time" so all test won't give exactly the same result. If you calculate you will find t is approximatively 120-160 ms for each weapon design.
8 ms is not much in comparaison with 140 ms!

What is there to understand, it is simple math. If the rounds per minute fired are 442 per 8 miiliseconds you can not simply ignore the 8 millisecond to come up with the effective yield and just multiply 442 with the yield. The Yield is assumed per shot fired per cycle rate! So you have to callculate the yield per shot per cylcle rate!

There is only one shot per cycle! One shot then 8 ms then one shot then 8 ms etc.

If your calculations are correct then:

465x12 = 5,580 yield per minute. Clearly not according to your calculations the better choice gun!

412x15 = 6,180 yield per minute. So this should be the better choice/gun right? according to your reasoning!
This is wrong, meaning it is not the better gun!

Splosives is right!
The second gun shoot only 11.4% less shots but each shot deals 25% more damage! If we consider only dps it's the better gun

You could hire me as a consultant for your -xplosives- Corporation and I gladly give advice for the best weapons fabricators out there for a handsome fee!...:P

I think you just failed the job interview but maybe I'm wrong


In conclusion, if you want to know your yield over time, simply multiply RPM by yield

Sorry Maarshalk, I had to side with my Fleet Admiral, and to clarify things about all this

[Edited on 23/1/2013 by Triton83]

[Edited on 23/1/2013 by Triton83]

[-splosives-]

Thank you, nihilith, for explaining things in a clear way.

Indeed, Maarschalk has failed the job interview.

[DaveK]

and you still have to take into account the miss rate in combat and the energy drain!

[-splosives-]

Let's say this is a calculation for "yield fired" and not "yield hit"

[-splosives-]

To clarify some things regarding cycle rate. You can't use cycle rate and rpm in the same equation, because they're basically the same written differently.
Fire rate has a frequency and a period. But period P=1/f , and in this case Cycle rate is the period in milliseconds, and rpm is the frequency in rounds per minute.
This results in following equation C=(1/rpm)*60000. so if you use them both in the same equation, you're taking fire rate into account twice.
If you multiply rpm*C, then you'll get (rpm/rpm)*60000, which makes 60000 with no unit.


[Edited on 1-23-2013 by -splosives-]

[Maarschalk]

Thank you Trinton83 for making this new thread about this topic.

And I apoligize to -xplosives- for the one mistake in the 4420 x 39 calculation. It was late and I was tired! You are correct 442 x 39 = 17,238!

1. And to clarify, yes, in normal calculations for weapons fire rate Triton83 calculations for yield and fire rate per cycle would be correct.

2. However using the normal method of calculation in the Game(and this is a Game) did not match the results of the hundreds of tests I did in the lab and in the field and the 2 examples I gave of 465/5 at 12 yield and 412/12 at 15 yield are just 2 of many other examples that did not match up to the normal calculations when tested in the field!.

3. I do not believe that Vice used the normal calculations. If he did, the results that I got should match and they did in most cases, but in many cases they did not!

4. I can give you the slider settings and info for the 2 examples I gave and test them for your self in the field and see that the normal calculation does not make sense!
and I can give many other examples that do not add up using normal calculations

5. I believe that Vice used a Calculation(not real life normal) in the Game similar as I suggested but a little bit more complex to include the Heat and Energy in the equation.
The closest I came with explaining the discrepancies I got using the normal calculation was using a simpler calculation as I suggested and this supported closely all the results of the tests done in the field! If this was not the case I would have not posted anything! RPM/60/C is the simple calculation that confirmed and matched up to the results I got.

6. So to explain again for example 465/5 (RPM/C) at 12 yield, the in Game calculation closest matching the results in the field would be ((465/60seconds/5milliseconds)x1000)x12=18,600 effective Yield per second. 412/12 at 15 yield would be ((412/60/12)x1000)x15=8,583.33 so almost 2 times the difference which matched the results in the field.
These might not be realistic numbers but ratio wise they explain the results of which Gun is more effective in the field using my calculations. Again try these for yourself in the field if you do not believe me and I will give you the exact slider settings for the experiment if you want!....

[-splosives-]

I've done a lot of field tests in the beta and the released expansion version of the game.
My results in the field are the opposite. higher yield and lower rpm make for more damage.

[Maarschalk]

I've done a lot of field tests in the beta and the released expansion version of the game.
My results in the field are the opposite. higher yield and lower rpm make for more damage.

Yes, I confirmed this in my clarification that this is true in most cases! But in many cases this is not true because of the different cycle.

And I was just looking for a calculation that explains all the results I got. Did you test the 2 Examples I gave in the field that contradicts the YieldxRPM calculation?
This is easy to do!

I can give you other examples to test in the field as well that contradicts the YieldxRPM calculation!....

[Munshine]

Now I'm really confused.
According to Maars's results a medium particle cannon (like a rail gun) with a high firing rate would be more efficient than a heavy weapon with a low firing rate.

According to Splosives'results, the highest yield would always prevail, wouldn't it ?
Splosives did you take into account the heat factor and the energy consumed by the weapon?

[Edited on 1-23-2013 by Munshine]

[Edited on 1-23-2013 by Munshine]

[Triton83]

Are you saying that plasma particle guns, for example, deal more damage than fusion cannon ? And that you checked it on the field ? (without energy consumption consideration) Sorry but I really doubt that.

Are you sure you are testing your weapons always on the same target (same equipment same armor) ?

And why are you calculating RPM/60/C ? RPM/60 gives you RPS (round per second), it is correct. But then why do you divide RPS by the cyclerate ? Check the units : RPS is in round/sec and cycle rate is milliseconds...

You are calculating round per time per time, then you are multiplying this by yield... Your result will be like :

"This gun rocks, because he can fire 8583 yield per second per second !"

Remember that C is the "inactive" cannon time so why do you want in any way to put it into damage count ? The cannon only deals damage when he's firing so everytime EXCEPT during cycle rate ^^

The game already gives you the only things you need : "How many bullets do I fire ?" = RPM ; "what is the damage of each bullet ?" = Y ; "what's my overall damage ?" = RPM x Y. Simple

[Edited on 23/1/2013 by Triton83]

[Triton83]

Now I'm really confused.
According to Maars's results a medium particle cannon (like a rail gun) with a high firing rate would be more efficient than a heavy weapon with a low firing rate.

According to Splosives'results, the highest yield would always prevail, wouldn't it ?
Splosives did you take into account the heat factor and the energy consumed by the weapon?

[Edited on 1-23-2013 by Munshine]

[Edited on 1-23-2013 by Munshine]

To be really clear : consider unlimited energy for all our calculations. Fusion cannon deals more damage, but will drop energy very fast. Indeed, you'll have to consider all this to choose the best weapon.

But here we are talking about the best damages only. Range, heat and energy consumption are not taken in consideration.

[Edited on 23/1/2013 by Triton83]

[-splosives-]

I did not take heat into account as it shouldn't influence the yield per minute.
According to my combat experience, the higher yield cannons do more damage than the lower yield ones.

I am not sure if the yield and the actual in game results are consistent. I remember vice tweaking a lot of things in the beta.
At first, the high yield ones didn't seem to do any more damage at all, then vice changed some stuff.

I would love to know how it's really calculated.

[Edited on 1-23-2013 by -splosives-]

[Marvin]

I would love to know how it's really calculated.

It's a computer game. Everything is calculated. Turn rates. Jump coordinates. Missile effectiveness. But, like in real life, what's on the drawing board and what the engineers tell ... well, what you see and what you get aren't necessarily the same thing. Which is why we have test pilots.

[-splosives-]

Quote by vice.

Hi vice

I have a small request.
I remember a lot of things being changed with the custom weapons in the beta.
I would really like to know how I could calculate damage per second.
Do I just use common sense and multiply rounds per minute with yield? is yield the damage of 1 shot?
Or is there some secret calculation? also, how is the damage on a ship calculated? how many hit points does a ship have with 300 armor?

I ask this because some people are experiencing inconsistencies between theoretical and experimental DPS.

Thanks in advance

Kind regards
Splosives

Hi Splosives,

Yes, it's damage per shot. Other factors also apply though, such as shield resistence (which can reduce the overall hull impact damage as the energy is reduced from the shot before impact, if the shot even makes it to the hull, otherwise there will only be the different category of shield damage applied) and type of damage (ie shield vs hull as with beam vs particle). For raw yield (not considering any other factors), yes, it's (RPM X Yield)/60 to get the 'damage per second'. Damage per minute might be easier to compare though with its larger sampling size.

In terms of armor hit 'points', I'd need to check and compare at least one value set to determine an estimate for that. If you want me to do that, send me a quick reminder e-mail.

[Triton83]

Thank you
So with equals sliders fusion cannon have the more dps.

Now regarding cycle rate :

To clarify some things regarding cycle rate. You can't use cycle rate and rpm in the same equation, because they're basically the same written differently.
Fire rate has a frequency and a period. But period P=1/f , and in this case Cycle rate is the period in milliseconds, and rpm is the frequency in rounds per minute.
This results in following equation C=(1/rpm)*60000. so if you use them both in the same equation, you're taking fire rate into account twice.
If you multiply rpm*C, then you'll get (rpm/rpm)*60000, which makes 60000 with no unit.


[Edited on 1-23-2013 by -splosives-]

I'm using RPM x C because RPM is also the number of cycle per minute.

I can reformulate the equation this way :

RPM x C + RPM x t = 60000
=> (Number of shots per minute x duration between 2 shots) + (Number of shots per minute x duration of a shot) = 1 minute

First part of the equation is the "no firing duration" (in milliseconds) and the second part is the "firing duration" (in milliseconds) within a minute (in milliseconds). So units are good.

Don't forget that each shot takes time ! That's what I tried to estimate around 140 ms.

That's why you cannot consider C as a period. The period is (C + t) with t = duration of one shot. Try some designs : your equation is correct if you use (C+t) as period


[Edited on 23/1/2013 by Triton83]

[Maarschalk]

Are you saying that plasma particle guns, for example, deal more damage than fusion cannon ? And that you checked it on the field ? (without energy consumption consideration) Sorry but I really doubt that.

Are you sure you are testing your weapons always on the same target (same equipment same armor) ?

And why are you calculating RPM/60/C ? RPM/60 gives you RPS (round per second), it is correct. But then why do you divide RPS by the cyclerate ? Check the units : RPS is in round/sec and cycle rate is milliseconds...

You are calculating round per time per time, then you are multiplying this by yield... Your result will be like :

"This gun rocks, because he can fire 8583 yield per second per second !"

Remember that C is the "inactive" cannon time so why do you want in any way to put it into damage count ? The cannon only deals damage when he's firing so everytime EXCEPT during cycle rate ^^

The game already gives you the only things you need : "How many bullets do I fire ?" = RPM ; "what is the damage of each bullet ?" = Y ; "what's my overall damage ?" = RPM x Y. Simple

[Edited on 23/1/2013 by Triton83]

I performed different tests, time tests/how many shots fired per second and the damage done in a period of time on the same target!. The effect of the gun in time as calculated by me using RPM/C x Y is the only formula that explains the ratio of difference in the discrepancies I found. If you test the 2 examples I gave you, you will see what I mean! That one destroyes the target almost 2x as fast and it is not the one you would asume simply by RPM x Y!.....That is al I'm saying.

I'm not saying that my calculation is the right one to measure the exact yield, but it explains and calculates the exact damage done in a period of time meaning that the shorter time is more important then what the exact number of yield is and is just a ratio of comparison to draw a conclusion on which is a better gun!.....

[Triton83]

Sorry Maarshalk but your calculation have no mathematical sense...

You should read carefully what I said, maybe it isn't very clear because english isn't my native language I can try to reformulate some unclear things if you tell me which ^^

Your equation gives a strange result which is "DPS per ms of cycle rate"

[SeeJay]

My own wesponslab is available on my "new" site.

All formulas can be seen on what each slider does.
Maybe that will help you guys sort things out?

[Triton83]

Amazing SeeJay this is really awesome !

[Maarschalk]

Very cool SeeJay!....

[Maarschalk]

Sorry Maarshalk but your calculation have no mathematical sense...

You should read carefully what I said, maybe it isn't very clear because english isn't my native language I can try to reformulate some unclear things if you tell me which ^^

Your equation gives a strange result which is "DPS per ms of cycle rate"

Well, English or should I say American is not my Native language either!....I understand what you are trying to say!...LOL

I do not think you understand the point I'm trying to make.
Maybe another example will help!

Take another 2 examples from my tables on SeeJay's Website
These tables by the way are actual results of the slider settings in the games Weapons lab. Do not think about the calculations being right or wrong just look at the end results of the calulations to compare their results when you test them in the field, these 2 are almost 2 extremes of the cycle rate 30 Versus 9.

1. Rail Particle Cannon #11 of the table:
Sliders set at: 100%, 0%, 100%, 0%
Yield=77, H/S=162, E/S=21, RPM/C=287/30
Your Calculation gives RPMxY=287x77=22,099
My Calculation gives (R/M/C)xYx1000=12,277.2

2. Fusion Particle Cannon #10 of the table:
Sliders set at: 0%, 100%, 0%, 100%
Yield=27, H/S=76, E/S=11, RPM/C=437/9
Your Calculation gives RPMxY=437x27=11,799
My Calculation gives (R/M/C)xYx1000=21,850

Again almost 2 x the ratio difference between the 2 calculations.
Your calculations are saying that the Rail Cannon #11 is 2x the better Cannon of the 2. When I tested these 2 guns, in game the first time, I used your calculations thinking exactly like you that this was 2x better than the Fusion Cannon.

But I found out to my Surprise that the Fusion Cannon #10 Destroyed the Target 2 x Faster and this did not make sense Just like the previous 2 Examples of 412/12 at yield 15 and 465/5 at yield 12 did not make sense with also almost 2x the difference the first time I tested them using simply RPMxY.

But when using my calculations even if it is wrong all the results matched. Remmember programers use different formulas that do not nescesarely make sense or they only make sense to the programmer!.....

I hope I'm clear with what I'm trying to say or explain here.
If not blame it on my Dutch interpretation of the American Language!.....:P

[-splosives-]

like vice said, there's a factor called "shield resistance" which you need to take into account. I can imagine that less high yield hits get less shield resistance than more low yield hits.

[Edited on 1-24-2013 by -splosives-]

[Munshine]

My own wesponslab is available on my "new" site.

All formulas can be seen on what each slider does.
Maybe that will help you guys sort things out?

Thank you very much Seejay for your WeaponLab Excel file, very appreciated.
I have some remarks though.

It seems that the existing weapons values in your excel file are accurate according to the website. But since the expansion, those values have changed. For example, a Maxim-R has now 49 Yield (no more 120) 780 Range (no more 700) 22 C/RPM.

Using sliders based on Maars rail gun and fusion particle cannon are giving weird results for yield, range and rpm.
For example, sliders set at 100 0 100 0 for the rail gun cannon#11 151 yield instead of 77 , 796 m range instead of 790 (?), 78 rpm instead of 287
Values for heat and energy e/s matched though.

It's the same for a fusion cannon 10# with sliders set at 0 100 0 100 :
59 yield instead of 27, 121 rpm instead 437

[SeeJay]

My own wesponslab is available on my "new" site.

All formulas can be seen on what each slider does.
Maybe that will help you guys sort things out?

Thank you very much Seejay for your WeaponLab Excel file, very appreciated.
I have some remarks though.

It seems that the existing weapons values in your excel file are accurate according to the website. But since the expansion, those values have changed. For example, a Maxim-R has now 49 Yield (no more 120) 780 Range (no more 700) 22 C/RPM.

Using sliders based on Maars rail gun and fusion particle cannon are giving weird results for yield, range and rpm.
For example, sliders set at 100 0 100 0 for the rail gun cannon#11 151 yield instead of 77 , 796 m range instead of 790 (?), 78 rpm instead of 287
Values for heat and energy e/s matched though.

It's the same for a fusion cannon 10# with sliders set at 0 100 0 100 :
59 yield instead of 27, 121 rpm instead 437

You are welcome.

The values are extracted from the Expansion. I checked all the sliders manually
to establish (figure out) the formulas.

However, I made the file early in the Beta and Vice might have changed the default
valuse since. I need to verify the figures in game to be sure thou.

I'll do it when I have the time. Is very occupied with the Quest Project at the moment.

/SeeJay

[-splosives-]

Vice has, indeed, changed the default numbers since early beta.