How would you like to see Fulcrum torpedoes changed?

Post by **Marvin** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:45 pm

From post: 153104, Topic: tid=10234, author=Vice wrote:The only truly effective way to stop 'shoot-suicide-spawn-shoot' is to limit their capability directly as a weapon (ie nerf what they can do)....

I disagree ... maybe. As long as somebody can continually disrupt PvP by launching FTs at other players (AI ships aside), it will be a problem.

Post by **Vice** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:48 pm

That's why limiting them directly is the only effective option. Either limit them by blocking them from multiplayer entirely (server-side setting) or limit when they can be fired in ways that prevents the shoot-suicide-shoot cycle, either by the player shooting or by the receiving player through a counter-move option that renders them ineffective.

The other option would be remove them entirely. No option to even buy them.

littleboy · Post by **littleboy** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:55 pm

so, 5 idiots are goin to make all this changes ?

ban them 1 week and let others having good time and fair-play

after a 1 week ban any idiots will consider the point 2 times before acting as an idiot again

Post by **Marvin** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:55 pm

What if a "deployable" version was made harder to acquire? What if they were part of the weapons lab? But you had to have both the FT "shell" and antimatter to build one? The shell would cost what FTs cost now ... but, by themselves, wouldn't work? They'd still be a good trade item ... but worthless as a real weapon.

zex · Post by **zex** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:03 pm

From post: 153066, Topic: tid=10234, author=Vice wrote:
And yes, forced auto-saving isn't a full-proof solution. I'm surprised there seems to be so little interest in having the option to remove them from the multiplayer equation entirely based on the other thread.

Removing them entirely would allow people to blow up stations in stealth with impunity. It would also be very difficult to deal with certain people who like to [enter station] thirty times to repair during a fight.

I think auto-save is a good option. It deals with the issue of suicide bombing Ad Nauseum with the help of a restock.

I think the only thing I would add is that I've never been dogged by someone constantly reloading their fulcrums by death, and I can't say that I've ever seen this happening online. I can imagine that it is very frustrating. I would warn anyone abusing this mechanic that the case could be made that this is player harassment, and I doubt that the various server operators would tolerate this kind of behavior.

[Edited on 12-25-2012 by zex]

Rubber Chicken · Post by **Rubber Chicken** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:06 pm

It seems to me that completely eliminating the exploit without eliminating the FT/PM will only lead to new exploits arising.

Perhaps instead of fully eliminating the exploit, there's a way to make it so inconvenient to use that it wouldn't really be worth it....

Really, a player doesn't have to kill themself with the FT to get it back. Doing it that way just elminates the time it takes to self-destruct to get it back after killing the target with a legitimate no-suicide attack.

Rubber Chicken · Post by **Rubber Chicken** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:11 pm

From post: 153110, Topic: tid=10234, author=littleboy wrote:so, 5 idiots are goin to make all this changes ?

Um... I'm not exactly sure who you are refering to as 'idiots'.
I sure hope it's not anyone on this thread......

Please show some restraint.

zex · Post by **zex** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:12 pm

From post: 153113, Topic: tid=10234, author=Rubber Chicken wrote:
Really, a player doesn't have to kill themself with the FT to get it back. Doing it that way just elminates the time it takes to self-destruct to get it back after killing the target with a legitimate no-suicide attack.

Force-Saving on launch eliminates this possibility too.

Rubber Chicken · Post by **Rubber Chicken** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:16 pm

From post: 153115, Topic: tid=10234, author=zex wrote:
From post: 153113, Topic: tid=10234, author=Rubber Chicken wrote:
Really, a player doesn't have to kill themself with the FT to get it back. Doing it that way just elminates the time it takes to self-destruct to get it back after killing the target with a legitimate no-suicide attack.
Force-Saving on launch eliminates this possibility too.

Yes. But Vice has stated he sees another possible exploit that he's not going to mention arising from this.

Post by **Marvin** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:37 pm

Btw, to be fair, anyone who insists on the FT being removed should, if they made any money is trading said FTs, give it all away. To put themselves on equal footing with new players.

Raven0 · Post by **Raven0** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:56 pm

A possible solution:
Integrate a 'proximity safety transmitter' for FTs and mines which occupies a hardpoint when loaded. Basically, torpedoes and mines wouldn't detonate if the launching player is within minimum safe distance. This would also limit the number of WMDs a player can carry while maintaining 'realism' in regards to the size of the weapon. A player coud only carry four of either weapon because the safety transmitter would occupy a hardpoint for every WMD loaded. It wouldn't completely eliminate griefing, but it should eliminate suicide attacks while allowing responsible players to use these weapons for their intended purpose.

Hemlet · Post by **Hemlet** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 8:52 pm

From post: 153084, Topic: tid=10234, author=Rubber Chicken wrote:OK from what I'm reading I've refined my view.....

1. Fulcrum would be unguided and require an impact to detonate.
2. The weapon should have a reduced radius so firing at a mission waypoint would only destroy the target cap ship and fighters in close proximity. (not both Caps and all the fighters)
3. An arming sequence - with warning.
4 Cap ships would be (occasionally) be able to fire them at other Caps. (Wishful thinking:))
5. Since the FT would need an impact (Cap, Station hull, or Fighter) to detonate, the autosave would be not needed.
The exploit would still exist, but more than likely be more trouble to use than it's worth.

Proximity Mines are also Kamikaze exploitable. Perhaps there's a solution for those as well?

[Edited on 12-25-2012 by Rubber Chicken]

I'd like to second these options. Partly because it incorporates something I brought up in a roundabout way in the other thread (FTs requiring an impact), which makes me feel special, but mostly because I really really like Maarshalk's idea of the arming sequence. Not only would it hamper the exploit, but just imagine for a moment how cool it would feel to type in that launch code before hitting the big red button.

From an average gameplay standpoint, having to actually input a launch code before firing a weapon would really hammer home that you're about to launch something that is incredibly destructive. From a suicide exploit standpoint (and from experience in other games being an annoying little troll for my own amusement), the code makes the weapon an ineffective choice because it takes forever to actually shoot.

Coupled with the proposed reduced blast radius, it would take forever to actually shoot AND the target would have ample warning and time to move an adequate distance away. Suddenly all you're accomplishing is blowing yourself up to no effect.

The allure of trolling is that you can do something that takes relatively little effort that annoys the crap out of other players/lets you cause mass destruction with relative ease. Take away the ease and it stops being a viable option.

Nubarus · Post by **Nubarus** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 9:03 pm

Why not give the fulcrum torpedo the job it's supposed to have and only to attack capital ships that will punch a hole in the hull and maybe destroy the ship if you hit a weak spot instead of some overkill tactical nuke that requires very little skill to use?

I mean the game only offers 2 options, a tactical guided missile that on it's own cannot destroy a heavy class ship and some overkill whipe everything out inside a wide radius torpedo.

There is absolutely nothing in between the one and the other besides some disable missiles.

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 9:39 pm

From post: 153136, Topic: tid=10234, author=Nubarus wrote:Why not give the fulcrum torpedo the job it's supposed to have and only to attack capital ships that will punch a hole in the hull and maybe destroy the ship if you hit a weak spot instead of some overkill tactical nuke that requires very little skill to use?

I mean the game only offers 2 options, a tactical guided missile that on it's own cannot destroy a heavy class ship and some overkill whipe everything out inside a wide radius torpedo.

There is absolutely nothing in between the one and the other besides some disable missiles.

Because it takes the fun away if it only destroys Capital ships on impact and nothing else on impact! Some people like to use it as a last resort if they are surrounded by hostiles to escape and if there is no capital ship around you, you have no chance!.....

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 9:44 pm

Another suggestion is to make a Fulcrum Torpedo Detonation Jamming Device available as suggested in a nother thread!.....

Mecingo · Post by **Mecingo** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 9:47 pm

The main problem I have with Fulcrums and Proximity Mines is the fact their over powered. Nothing should be a one hit kill/instant kill. If the damage dealt by such weapons could be decreased but still do a number on a ship that is fine by me. But also if there was something to counter it say something that could be used in a secondary slot or a something that can be created using the deploy constructor that would be great.

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:07 pm

I have no problem with the overpowering destruction of the FTs. Some times it is nice to have. It is the lack of control of abuse of the FTs that can be a problem!.....

-splosives- · Post by **-splosives-** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:25 pm

One hit kill weapons ruin game enjoyment.
If you want to make FT's an enjoyable contribution towards general game play, you'll have to make a ton of compromises, and even then I would rather not use them or see them being used.
If something in a game serves no good purpose and only causes annoyance, broken trade systems
and a lot of work to come up with a good solution to it that will never solve the problem completely, then it is probably best to not bother with it and remove it entirely.

Think of it this way.
If the fulcrum torpedo never was an element in the game, nobody would ever think "Hey, you know what would make this game better? a nuke that kills everything with one press of a button".
Nobody would want a weapon like this. Nobody would even think about it, so the only reason people want to keep it in the game is because they're used to it being there.
That is why I vote to remove the FT from the game.

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:43 pm

From post: 153146, Topic: tid=10234, author=-splosives- wrote:One hit kill weapons ruin game enjoyment.
If you want to make FT's an enjoyable contribution towards general game play, you'll have to make a ton of compromises, and even then I would rather not use them or see them being used.
If something in a game serves no good purpose and only causes annoyance, broken trade systems
and a lot of work to come up with a good solution to it that will never solve the problem completely, then it is probably best to not bother with it and remove it entirely.

Think of it this way.
If the fulcrum torpedo never was an element in the game, nobody would ever think "Hey, you know what would make this game better? a nuke that kills everything with one press of a button".
Nobody would want a weapon like this. Nobody would even think about it, so the only reason people want to keep it in the game is because they're used to it being there.
That is why I vote to remove the FT from the game.

You have a point. However this is a game and more veriaty in a game makes it more fun! There is always some annoying factors for any one in any game just like in real life and we have to live with them!

We are talking about abuse just like in real life there is abuse! By taking stuff others enjoy in a game who are not abusing them away you are not helping to create a fun game or environment for every one! Many people do not use them for one mass destruction kill, but just use them for profitable trade!.....