Capital Ships

Lant · Post by **Lant** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:57 am

Hi

Im interested in this game, it seams nearly perfect for my. Just one question: Can you control capital ships like cruisers in this game, and if not, is this an option that might be added in the future?

Or will this be fighter / trader only?

Busch · Post by **Busch** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:30 am

Sorry, Lant. No capital ship controls in this, or any iteration of the Evo-verse games that I know of, or have flown. There has been some scuttle about that very thing. Nothing as yet. Who knows ?

Lant · Post by **Lant** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:25 pm

From post: 134951, Topic: tid=9193, author=Busch wrote:Sorry, Lant. No capital ship controls in this, or any iteration of the Evo-verse games that I know of, or have flown. There has been some scuttle about that very thing. Nothing as yet. Who knows ?

Damn. There are hardly any space sims already, and those who are released all seem to hate capital ships.
Why? Controllable Battlecruisers etc. are the coolest thing! But the only newer game that had them was the "X"-Series (X2 + X3), and guess what? The new "X Rebirth" will have them no more.

Allright, guess Ill have to wait for "Infiity". Evochron looked cool, but at the moment I dont want to pay for another fighter-only sim.

[Edited on 4-13-2012 by Lant]

Malix · Post by **Malix** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:47 pm

well, the name of the game is Evochron Mercenary, not Evochron Fleet Commander

Rubber Chicken · Post by **Rubber Chicken** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:39 pm

I don't see any reason why Vice wouldn't have considered Cap Ships. I think however that he'd want to do them right. Meaning the 'inside' the hull' environment would have to be very detailed and interactive as well as the universe around the ship. As you may know he is working on expanding upon the EM title by improving the galactic environment, adding surface walkers, and adding/improving features. That's ALOT of work to begin with.

Maybe he will create a Cap Ship Commander title, but you're gonna hafta be very patient. Evochron Universe much like Rome, wasn't built in a day.

Post by **Marvin** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:54 pm

From post: 134966, Topic: tid=9193, author=Lant wrote:Allright, guess Ill have to wait for "Infiity".

That will probably be a very long wait indeed. According to the Infinity website, the team has pretty much decided to start from scratch.

Lant · Post by **Lant** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:21 pm

From post: 134976, Topic: tid=9193, author=Malix wrote:well, the name of the game is Evochron Mercenary, not Evochron Fleet Commander

Its not Evochron Fighterpilot either. Why wouldnt a "Mercenary" be able to command a cruiser

For fucks sake, is it really so hard to implement them? People are allways afraid they would be overpowerd, but how many cruisers did we blow up in Freespace, Freelancer etc.? Just implement strong torpedos as well.

Just pay attention to the Rock-paper-scissors principle and everything would be allright.

Rubber Chicken · Post by **Rubber Chicken** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:14 pm

Well simply put, Not all small - framed ships in the game are fighters. The Civilian type frames are really designed to be utility ships that have defensive capabilities. The Military class ships are the fighters.

When have you ever heard of a Mercenary and his trusty battleship? A mercenary and his trusty 4x4 truck makes a little more sense!;)

Also everybody in the game basically holds the label of Mercenary from the day you start to the day you put it down.

Mercenaries might command a small crew for their ships, but a Battleship Commander is responsible for hundreds of crew members.

[Edited on 4-13-2012 by Rubber Chicken]

Lant · Post by **Lant** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:18 pm

From post: 135001, Topic: tid=9193, author=Rubber Chicken wrote:
When have you ever heard of a Mercenary and his trusty battleship? A mercenary and his trusty 4x4 truck makes a little more sense!;)

Its actual a pretty common trope in SciFi. Even more so if you expand the definiton of Mercenary to include Pirates, or at least "Freebooters". Warhammer 40K even has a rule concerning "Mercenary cruisers".

Well Im just saying it would be a unique feature, that would attract more players. Because at the moment no new game has it. Just look at how active the Bridge Commander and Starshatter modding communites are, simply because they are the only games featuring capital controllable ships.

Post by **Marvin** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:31 pm

I'm not for adding battleships to the Mercenary mix but I must admit that quite a few of the old Japanese cartoon space operas were about mercenary captains and their battleships.

Post by **Vice** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:37 pm

Indeed, it hasn't really been on the drawing board for the game. I'm not necessarily against the idea of capital ships in the game, but there are some considerations (and I would also recommend you review some of the previous discussions on the topic). In particular, here are some considerations to provide your thoughts on just how such ships could be incorporated into the game:

1 â€“ Details on the gameplay purposes you envision with capital ships (ie, how they would relate to the player and a game such as Evochron).
2 â€“ How transferring to/from them would function. And where they would be stored/parked while the player is away.
3 â€“ How combat systems would work (ie, the player directly controls individual cannons or they play themselves and have auto-cannons).
4 â€“ Controls systems (direct player control or just point-n-click control console similar to a RTS).
5 - How to implement such designs with other player controlled ships to retain balance (especially considering cargo capacity issues encountered in the past with smaller ships and the '5 or more' limit debates we've had over the years), challenge, and 'fun' in the game.

So beyond just flying big ships for the sake of flying big ships, these kinds of areas are of interest to me from a gameplay and functionality perspective.

Post by **Marvin** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:05 am

The battleships in Starshatter worked about the best (not counting the unresolved bugs in the game), from what I've seen over the years. They were slow to maneuver (really, really slow) and usually required manual input for the employment of all offensive and defensive weapons. Additionally (IIRC), they couldn't enter a planet's atmosphere. But, if they found their way into Mercenary, I'd like to see the time limit of the cloaking device extended to an hour ... thereby allowing me to torpedo a battleship without being detected. That way, I could uninstall Silent Hunter IV, concentrate totally on EM ... and still get my fill of stalking deadly prey while hiding from everything except Mercenary's version of high-tech SONAR.

Exile · Post by **Exile** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:45 am

I think the gameplay mechanics of battleships and other large craft are simple to identify if you interpret them in the sense of an echelon in contemporary warfare.

If large scale ships were to be present in an evochron game, I imagine that installment in the series having a story tied to such game mechanics.

I can envision a storyline that involves the player getting involved in a faction and over time climbs to the top. Said storyline can drive the player to have a goal of recapturing territory that is rightfully theirs according to plotline.

At the end of the storyline, the player can continue playing in the freeform universe with no limitations as to how much space he chooses to conquer.

I'd imagine the player starting as a solo pilot in a single crew ship, and eventually graduating to larger ships as he gains favor with the faction.

Eventually, he is given command of a small frigate, with a ten man crew and a wing of three escort fighters.

Further along, he could come under command of a cruiser with a larger complement of escort fighters at his disposal.

End game would see the player in command of a flagship/carrier with far greater responsibility in command and control.

In regards to game mechanics with relevance to controls, I think the player should always have the choice to control the ships directly, and even micromanage weapon systems or allow them to be controlled by crew members (ai)

However, an RTS style interface would be necessary at later stages where the player is in control of a large number of vessels.

Nevertheless, a mechanic of the game could be ; storyline and otherwise, that the protagonist is legendary in "leading from the front" which allows the player to launch from his own flagship in a smaller vessel of his choice, and join the fight first hand, while still having the ability to give orders to individual craft, or allow them to run on ai.

In multiplayer, to make a level of fairness, perhaps capital ships could be reserved for clans. In such a way, only one flagship/carrier could exist per clan (if they have the resources to maintain one) followed by a compliment of cruisers, frigates, gunboats and fighters all controlled by other clan members.

This way, clan wars for control of sectors in space would be related to how the player gained territory in single player, but the added difficulty of routing an opposing human group of players from the territory is present.

The problem with this is the following.

Several new models would need to be created

what is the pilot view going to look like for commanders of large ships? Will the "cockpit" screen boast a view of the bridge from the captains chair?

Gameplay mechanics involving how to take and hold control of sectors would have to be coded.

New weapons to level the playing field would need to exist, such as the aforementioned torpedoes.

All in all, it would be years of work.

[Edited on 14-4-12 by Exile]

Lant · Post by **Lant** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:28 am

From post: 135009, Topic: tid=9193, author=Vice wrote: Indeed, it hasn't really been on the drawing board for the game. I'm not necessarily against the idea of capital ships in the game, but there are some considerations (and I would also recommend you review some of the previous discussions on the topic). In particular, here are some considerations to provide your thoughts on just how such ships could be incorporated into the game:

1 â€“ Details on the gameplay purposes you envision with capital ships (ie, how they would relate to the player and a game such as Evochron).
2 â€“ How transferring to/from them would function. And where they would be stored/parked while the player is away.
3 â€“ How combat systems would work (ie, the player directly controls individual cannons or they play themselves and have auto-cannons).
4 â€“ Controls systems (direct player control or just point-n-click control console similar to a RTS).
5 - How to implement such designs with other player controlled ships to retain balance, challenge, and 'fun' in the game.

So beyond just flying big ships for the sake of flying big ships, these kinds of areas are of interest to me from a gameplay and functionality perspective.

[Edited on 4-13-2012 by Vice]

Just one question: If this thread would go one for a while, with the majority of the players hanging in the direction of: "Yeah having a corvette or even a cruiser as a goal to save your money for would actually be a cool thing", would you consider it?

Or do you think all the problems would be too hard to overcome, no matter what.

If so, I have some suggestions for question 3 - 5

3. Autocannons if the player is not sitting in the cannon, but he can take over manually. AI-controlled cannons can shoot on their own, but arent much good at it.

4. Look at the mistakes the "X" series made. There you could control a battleship with the WASD buttons, even "strafe", which, even I as a "I want to control them!!!"-freak just didnt like. It felt just plain wrong. Indirect control would be better, like in "Starshatter", or even "Homeworld".

BUT! Dont take the "Im sitting on the bridge of my Cruiser"-feeling away. No third-person-only, no remote-control only. (Which, again, are mistakes "X Rebirth" is gonna make - Thus killing all immersion)

5. Look at games like Freespace and Freelancer. Fighting alone against a battleship? You were toast. Sorry, but its a battleship. No point in dumbing it down. Have two wingmen and a load of torpedos? You had a pretty fair chance...

EDIT: AND ONE IMPORTANT THING: Many people seem to think with "Capital Ships" ingame I would mean hundreds of giant battleships. Thats not the case, the "lower tier" of capital ships, meaning Corvettes, Frigates and Destroyers would be already really cool.

[Edited on 4-14-2012 by Lant]

BLEVE · Post by **BLEVE** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:49 am

Frontier Elite had some very big ships, with extemely large cargo capacity. Although they were technically not capitol ships they were massive compared to the fighter ships.

I agree the traders could have more cargo pods and this could be balanced by reducing the Gun Running profits now available. Make trading a harder and therefore riskier business, than it is at present.

How many players would just love to hunt these big ships down in order to steal their cargo.

Post by **Vice** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:05 am

Just one question: If this thread would go one for a while, with the majority of the players hanging in the direction of: "Yeah having a corvette or even a cruiser as a goal to save your money for would actually be a cool thing", would you consider it?

It's possible. Player feedback/requests have generally guided the development process in the past and it would probably become a more feasible possibility if there was signficant interest from the registered playerbase, relevant gameplay purposes/benefits to the core 'lone-wolf' Evochron design concept, and enough time/resources to invest in implementing it. Now is probably not the best time for me to be evaluating such things though as I'm suffering from pretty severe long-hours-taking-a-toll coding burnout at this stage of development in the expansion, lol

Or do you think all the problems would be too hard to overcome, no matter what.

Also tough to say at this point. Problems would be revealed as expectations are established for how capital ships would function (controls, what role they'd play, system/weapon options, etc) and how the player would handle them in-game. Certain objectives would probably be pretty easy to implement, others not so much.

For #3, auto-cannons would probably have to be a must if they are to feasibly defend against the capabilities of an ambush from smaller ships in the game. Plus, for that and #4, they might risk working against the 'player control' design philosophy of the game, that is, the approach in everything from player controlled planetary descents to player controlled station docking. Auto-cannons probably wouldn't be too much of an issue in that regard, but point-n-click armchair flight controls likely would, so the ships would probably be directly controlled by the player.

The idea of having a few capital ships being flown by players in a battle is appealing, it's just inherently a big rule changing addition that would need to be done with careful consideration for the scope of limitations and available options listed in this thread for fair and fun balanced gameplay.

sundalo · Post by **sundalo** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:54 pm

5. Look at games like Freespace and Freelancer. Fighting alone against a battleship? You were toast. Sorry, but its a battleship. No point in dumbing it down. Have two wingmen and a load of torpedos? You had a pretty fair chance...

Good example of how cap ships played a major role in freespace fleet battles. In Mercenary and previous games, cap ships on contracts usually did scripted functions, attacking another cap ship, the player, but is it possible to have these large scale battles involving multiple cap ships to include escorts dynamically at any given time in certain areas of space? Hostile or perhaps an invasion fleet either vonari or any faction? Any Freespace veteran knows what in talking about in regards to those epic missions involving enemy cap ships and the various methods of attacking them.

[Edited on 4-14-2012 by sundalo]

Exile · Post by **Exile** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:42 pm

In regards to adding them to existing gameplay with minimal changes:

1 â€“ Details on the gameplay purposes you envision with capital ships (ie, how they would relate to the player and a game such as Evochron).

A) Gameplay relation: The player could choose to purchase a transport ship in order to carry more goods and make more cash as a trader.
Militarily they could be given the opportunity to command a large ship with similar contracts as currently in game, but tweaked to incorporate larger ships as player controlled vessels.

2 â€“ How transferring to/from them would function. And where they would be stored/parked while the player is away.

A) Dock and "enter station" New option to "Go to the bridge" and take control of said vessel if it is yours. Undock to leave the game as per normal coding,

In multiplayer ship can double as a station for others to dock to, and therefore would stay behind if you are gone and can still be destoryed, but will obviously defend itself with ai escort and auto turrets etc.

3 â€“ How combat systems would work (ie, the player directly controls individual cannons or they play themselves and have auto-cannons).

A) Auto cannons are obviously agreed on at this point. However, Allied players should be able to dock to the capital ship and have a "Enter turret" option to man the turret defences.

There could be some kind of main weapon that is aligned with the vessel and therefore can be aimed by pointing at a target with the whole ship. This type of weapon could be fired by the player at will. Perhaps an energy weapon of sorts designed to fire at stations and other cap ships.

Also, missile pods could auto lock on ships in range and be under the players control in regards of firing the missiles. Or they could be controlled by other players boarded on the ship.

4 â€“ Controls systems (direct player control or just point-n-click control console similar to a RTS).

A) Definitely direct player control, though I don't think the cap ships should be able to enter atmo. You'd have to undock with your "Captains yacht" or a smaller vessel to shuttle down to surface.

5 - How to implement such designs with other player controlled ships to retain balance, challenge, and 'fun' in the game.

A) Again, one large cap ship per clan, smaller support vessels like frigates, cruisers, repair ships etc can be in larger numbres, but only one carrier per clan.

There use simple; to arrest control of territories from other clans by destroying player space stations and other cap ships etc.

A parked cap ship could be worth a certain number of percentage of "owning" said sector, aiding in boosting a certain clans presents in a sector or system.

Also, a new type of armament should be made to level the playing field in such a way that , if a small fleet of fighters and "bombers" attacks a cap ship that has no echelon to support it (no repair ships to hasten bringing weapon systems back online etc) the attack wing could target subsystems in a systematic way that makes taking a cap ship down challenging and tactical.

ei. Attack shields with beam weapons until shields are down, target shield subsystem and destroy it, target turret subsystems and destroy them (so that torpedo can make it through without being destroyed) Lock on with torpedoes and fire.

This way, it isn't necessary for a cap ship to be taken out by another cap ship, which means a less wealthy clan could potentially put up a successful insurgency in a sector which they lost to an opposing clan regardless of having less manpower and no cap ship.

[Edited on 14-4-12 by Exile]

Nubarus · Post by **Nubarus** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:24 pm

[Edited on 4-15-2012 by Nubarus]

[Edited on 3-16-2013 by Nubarus]

Rubber Chicken · Post by **Rubber Chicken** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:11 pm

I think that if Cap ships were to be implemented the 'gusto' should be gone for! Meaning Crew managment and also having many different areas to travel to, - from bridge to engine room. While the crew might manage most systems on your behalf, there would still be times you would have to 'put your hands' on the more 'micro' aspects of the ship operations if you don't want to become a hull full of vacuum!:) Once again, from that view it sounds like a separate title or it's own expansion pack separate from the upcoming one.

Personally I think the -already implemented - concept of the small band of adventurers keeping their 'home' operational as they travel the galaxy is adequate for this title.

Plus if only clans could employ Cap Ships, then you would see alot of indy pilot's being a clan of one just to have access to the feature.

Salim · Post by **Salim** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:28 pm

Also to balance things up a little, make the capital ships unable to use gates.

Exile · Post by **Exile** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:42 pm

From post: 135178, Topic: tid=9193, author=Salim wrote:Also to balance things up a little, make the capital ships unable to use gates.

Interesting idea. Maybe they are capable of jumping further though?

This could be interesting. trying to track a cap ship as it jumps between two systems so you could ambush it?

Twilly Frost · Post by **Twilly Frost** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:29 pm

The idea of capital ships in the Evochron universe gives me chills. Why more games don't have them is beyond me...I've never brought up the topic again after we hashed it out in the "things you'd like to see" section because I thought it was a non starter with Vice.

I'd like to save up all of my money and buy one, so I could crash it into a planet. Glorious.

Perhaps with the jumping of capital ship a jump signature could appear in the quadrant map indicating a point of re-entry for ambushes and the like.

Using the existing gunner binding architecture to have multiple player controlled gunners on a destroyer would be fantastic. Clans could have flag ships. Torpedoes specific for destroying cap ships could level the playing field. Navigation could be programmed into a star chart similar to the existing nav map for movement rather tha real time with the joystick or keyboard. The time it would take to do this would level the playing field as well. It would also be cool as all get out...

[Edited on 4-16-2012 by Twilly Frost]

Post by **DaveK** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:12 am

For me, adding capital ships control and management to this game, would be like asking for the ability to manage a trading empire, owning stations and organising the economics of your empire - some people would find it fun instead of flying round in a small ship, but it's not EM. The Clans system is a reasonable compromise. At least you couldn't do much harm to the balance of game play

With capital ship control there is a danger of unbalancing the game in a major way - taking on a capital ship as a solo pilot isn't impossible but it does take practice - if the capital ship had it's own complement of fighters and was harder to kill and had its own controllable defense network of missiles, cannon and CM's (all of which people would inevitably ask for if flyable cap ships entered the game) I think that solo pilots would be squeezed out - it's bad enough already with clans controlling everywhere with a gate

. Max up your capital ship and be invulnerable.

A thought - if an FT could still take out a maxed up capital ship then there would be little point investing in them - if it couldn't you have yoiur own "God Mode"

If you want to fly and manage a battleship I suspect it would be more fun to get a game where capital ships are an important part and were planned into the game structure from the start - something like the (ill-fated) Battlecruiser! Independence War allowed you to control a crew or manage any one of the four stations and fine tune your ship for different effect. Are there any others out there - people have often said "like in xxxx" when sharing their wish lists

Dugbog2 · Post by **Dugbog2** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:36 pm

If you are looking for a game with controllable battleships, try Crossfire, an amazing mod for Freelancer. It has plenty of capital ships, fighters, cargo ships, a cosy player base, proper roleplay, many more factions, ships and systems. It's free, and you can just download it. I have played it for a long time and love it, so just give it a try.