Roll with E,Q too slow

[ezra-s]

Hello,


Scenario:
* Steam version of the game
* My game rig has a simple joystick. Logitech Wingman Attack 3, which has X, Y and THROTLE(edit) controls and 9 buttons. Therefore Joystick does not have a proper ROLL axis to configure.

The way I have configured the game then I just joystick for ship movement in X,Y, throttle, gun shooting and missile launch.

Therefore, in the game Joystick config all axis other than X,Y and throttle have been disabled since joystick can not use those it lacks obviously.

Keyboard controls everything else, which is vertical and horizontal speed, ids or inertial, etc... and these include ROLL control with default keys "E", "Q".



Problem:

When playing the game roll speed is too slow, and with too slow I don't mean basic wings in basic ship, I mean it is not like it is supposed to be by default not even in the beginner ship, to put it graphically it can take from 40 seconds to one minute maybe more to do 1 full Roll of 360º (I don't have the patience to count), rendering the roll control useless for me in the game.



Tests I've done aside trying to play with a useless ROLL:

*Disconnected joystick and started the game.
* E,Q controls respond correctly now but Arrow Keys for normal ship movement (meaning up,down,right,left arrow keys) move as slow as E,Q did before unplugging the joystick.

Issue seems to be related to joystick configuration settings although Roll is disabled in Joystick config from the game.

Find my Dxdiag attached.


PS: This joystick works perfectly with other space "joystick" games.

[file]537[/file]


[Edited on 1-25-2012 by ezra-s]

[Vice]

There is currently no way to split up that control function between two flight control modes in that way. So it will require some changes to accommodate. I've added it to the to-do list for the next update and will look into it.

[Marvin]

* My game rig has a simple joystick. Logitech Wingman Attack 3, which has X, Y and rudder controls and 9 buttons.

Just out of curiosity, why would you want to disable the rudder control? And why would you want to then assign the Y axis to rudder?

[ezra-s]

* My game rig has a simple joystick. Logitech Wingman Attack 3, which has X, Y and rudder controls and 9 buttons.

Just out of curiosity, why would you want to disable the rudder control? And why would you want to then assign the Y axis to rudder?

Maybe I explained myself incorrectly for that I apologize.

by rudder I wanted to say Throttle.

My joystick has X, Y, throttle and 9 buttons. I haven't disabled anything my joystick can do.

E,Q keys for rolling roll too slow in the keyboard.

ROLL in the joystick config is disabled since joystick does not have necessary axis

Ps: I am modifying original post


---


Vice, do you mean the game is only designed to play with a joystick which has a roll axis and If you don't, keyboard keys for rolling won't work?

----

Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned my joystick all along.

[Edited on 1-25-2012 by ezra-s]

[Maarschalk]

I'm Confused now!

Maybe a language barrier, but every joystick even yours has a Pitch and Roll Axis. You say your Joystick has 2 Axis, X and Y.

These are your Pitch and Roll Axis. I have flown many Airplane simulators and tried many different joysticks even yours before buying my Saitek X52 Joystick. And all have a Pitch and Roll Axis even yours. They where designed that way specifically for Flight Simulators because that is how most airplanes fly with Pitch and Roll and Rudder(Yaw control for adjusting left and right turns). Now if you play a lot of 2D Arcade style games then the Roll Axis is used for turning left and right(Rudder function, Yaw controll turning left, right) but that is not the primary function of the Roll Axis. So this might be the problem that you are trying to set your Joystick up a certain way that you want it to work which is not very functional for a 3D Game. I bet you play alot of 2D or 3D Terain Games, Adventures where you do not use the Roll Axis of your Joystick for Roll.....

[Vice]

Vice, do you mean the game is only designed to play with a joystick which has a roll axis and If you don't, keyboard keys for rolling won't work?

Sort of yes. If you use the joystick flight control mode, then the game switches to a dedicated control system expecting variable axis input. So what is needed is a setup that bypasses the axis expectation/input when optional key and button inputs are used. So when you press the Q or E key, the axis control is ignored and the system automatically switches over to the other control mode for that input temporarily until the key/button is released. Kind of a flight input control 'toggle' that will let you use either input option.

[Maarschalk]

Ezra-s, All Joysticks have a Roll Axis, even yours! I do not understand why you keep saying yours does not!, I tried yours on a flight simulator in a store and it has a Roll Axis. But obviously you do not want to assign it to Roll for some Reason!......

[ezra-s]

Maarschalk I believe you are confused with the terms or maybe it is me, or I am talking about the game and you mean other things:

Yaw - X axis - allows to move right or left. In a joystick is when you move the stick left or right for space games.
Pitch - Y axis - Allows to move up and down. In a joystick is when you move the stick forward or backward (pull,push)

ROLL - Z or X axis (not sure) and E,Q keys. This is when you make your ship rotate along its longitudinal axis. That is the ship goes straight forward but rolling, like a barrel roll!!


Maybe and I don't know about that, in real aircraft roll is the right,left movement of the stick, but not in this game or space games!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4OloqBg ... re=related <-- ROLL



So when I say every joystick in the world will at least have X,Y axis and all others are additions I mean it. Basic joystick axis are only X and Y.

Now I am getting confused too

---

Anyways, thanks for the prompt reply Vice.

You say:

"So when you press the Q or E key, the axis control is ignored and the system automatically switches over to the other control mode for that input temporarily until the key/button is released."

"Kind of a flight input control 'toggle' that will let you use either input option."

Well, when you configure the joystick in the game you go over several axis configuring it to use it with joystick or "disabling" it. I disabled the Roll axis in that config, as well as you can disable the throttle or the others...

Shouldn't it just only depend on the keyboard keys completely now when you have previously disable it in the config?


You don't need to answer to this I am just pointing my thought on it but maybe I am being repetitive, I have enough knowing you are looking into it.

Thank you very much for the support.

[Edited on 1-25-2012 by ezra-s]

[Edited on 1-25-2012 by ezra-s]

[Vice]

Well, when you configure the joystick in the game you go over several axis configuring it to use it with joystick or "disabling" it. I disabled the Roll axis in that config, as well as you can disable the throttle or the others...

Shouldn't it just only depend on the keyboard keys completely now when you have previously disable it in the config?

If there weren't separate flight control modes, it would behave that way. But when you select 'Joystick' for flight control and just bypass an axis, the game currently treats that control as just centered and not moving, which is impacting the key input when you try to use that. However, with the changes I'm working on, the stick input can be bypassed entirely for the key/button input.

[Marvin]

The game's default for the Y-axis is yaw. But you can (and should) change it to roll ... especially if you're an old Elite pilot. Or just an old aircraft (Flight Sim) pilot. Then use the keyboard for yaw. See how that works for you.

[Maarschalk]

Maarschalk I believe you are confused with the terms or maybe it is me, or I am talking about the game and you mean other things:

Yaw - X axis - allows to move right or left. In a joystick is when you move the stick left or right for space games.
Pitch - Y axis - Allows to move up and down. In a joystick is when you move the stick forward or backward (pull,push)

ROLL - Z or X axis (not sure) and E,Q keys. This is when you make your ship rotate along its longitudinal axis. That is the ship goes straight forward but rolling, like a barrel roll!!


Maybe and I don't know about that, in real aircraft roll is the right,left movement of the stick, but not in this game or space games!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4OloqBg ... re=related <-- ROLL



So when I say every joystick in the world will at least have X,Y axis and all others are additions I mean it. Basic joystick axis are only X and Y.

Now I am getting confused too

---

Anyways, thanks for the prompt reply Vice.

You say:

"So when you press the Q or E key, the axis control is ignored and the system automatically switches over to the other control mode for that input temporarily until the key/button is released."

"Kind of a flight input control 'toggle' that will let you use either input option."

Well, when you configure the joystick in the game you go over several axis configuring it to use it with joystick or "disabling" it. I disabled the Roll axis in that config, as well as you can disable the throttle or the others...

Shouldn't it just only depend on the keyboard keys completely now when you have previously disable it in the config?


You don't need to answer to this I am just pointing my thought on it but maybe I am being repetitive, I have enough knowing you are looking into it.

Thank you very much for the support.

[Edited on 1-25-2012 by ezra-s]

[Edited on 1-25-2012 by ezra-s]

Ah, now I understand you. In 3D Space Games you do not need to use your Roll Axis if you only have 2 Axis, so you asign your Roll Axis to Yaw(to turn left and right) The Yaw Axis is the Z Axis and is normally used asigned to rudder(yaw) foot pedals in Aircraft but since a lot of players could not afford expensive joysticks with foot pedals they started to make Joysticks for Flight Simulators with a Z Axis, twist fuction for the rudder control. So the Primary Axis for any Joystick are Pitch and Roll!
Since my Joystick has all 3 Axis because I do not use foot pedals for yaw in flight simulators I use the twist function instead.

Joysticks where first made for Aircrafts, Airplanes and not SpaceCrafts and Airplane Joysticks uses 2 Axis For Pitch and Roll
and that is their primary function. Now in Space games you can Assign the Roll Axis to do the Yawing function(turning left and right) and that is what you are doing! But to say your Joystick does not have a Roll Axis would be incorrect and confusing to a Aircraft Combat Pilot. Your Joystick does not have a Twist function or Z Axis(Yaw) is what you are saying!......So you did asign the Roll Axis to do the turning and asign the Roll to the Q and E buttons!....

[Edited on 1-25-2012 by Maarschalk]

[Marvin]

Maars, that's a terrible diagram. IIRC, Vice has a much better one in the guide.

[Maarschalk]

Maars, that's a terrible diagram. IIRC, Vice has a much better one in the guide.

That is not mine, that is Ezra-s!....:P

[Marvin]

Oh, yeah ... sorry 'bout that Maars. I'm out in the garage and my brain is freezing. Still, Vice's guide has a better diagram, I think.

[servili007]

I suggest you do as the others say and map your joystick's horizontal axis to roll. This is actually more intuitive and follows same flight characteristics of an aircraft (I should know). The movement of the craft becomes fluid in that you can easily chase a target and do other basic maneuvers with ease. The left and right twist movement available on joysticks such as the saitek x52 or saitek ST290 pro are what are meant to be mapped to your yaw axis, and if you actually used one of these joysticks, you'd quickly realize why (the wrist action matches the movement of the craft, or your hand points in the direction of the nose)

[Edited on 1-26-2012 by servili007]

[ezra-s]

first of all, Vice, thanks for looking into it.

Second of all, guys, you are all right, I am going to try switching controlls now and see how it feels and if everything works right for me then.

I guess I am too used to space games way of the joystick, been playing this type since Wing Commander II (notalgy), privateer (my favourite), freespace2 (my second fav.), etc.. and in all of them the X axis was always assigned to yaw and used keyboard keys for rolling, and thats where all my confusion comes from. Sometimes it's difficult to notice different and switch that in mind!

Amazing support, thank you!

-----

Edit: I gotta say, rolling with the X-axis is quite odd for spaceships who arennt limitted in yawing speed. now I am trying to use E,Q to yaw but it does slow as Vice says, don't know which is better though I think I am better used to yawing with X.

[Edited on 1-26-2012 by ezra-s]

[MiaZ]

Edit: I gotta say, rolling with the X-axis is quite odd for spaceships who arennt limitted in yawing speed. now I am trying to use E,Q to yaw but it does slow as Vice says, don't know which is better though I think I am better used to yawing with X.
[Edited on 1-26-2012 by ezra-s]

Ezra-s, if it was me, I would use mouse control for flight until its all worked out, or buy a different stick. X52 is great for this game.
I liked the classic Roll with X-axis back in Elite days as well as in all flight sims but I don't like it at all in EM or other space games
and without a good yaw speed it would be really very hard.


Vice, if my understating is right about what you are saying in earlier posts here.
Then I don't understand why I can set no axis for Roll in game,
then assign keys to buttons on my stick and still get a good roll rate?
It might be a little slower then when using an axis for roll but its not dead slow and impossible to work with.

[Vice]

Miaz, could have to do with the impact of deadzone/sensitivity settings on that input while the joystick flight control mode is active. Not sure though, but it'll be changed for the next update either way.

[ezra-s]

Ezra-s, if it was me, I would use mouse control for flight until its all worked out, or buy a different stick. X52 is great for this game.
I liked the classic Roll with X-axis back in Elite days as well as in all flight sims but I don't like it at all in EM or other space games
and without a good yaw speed it would be really very hard.


Vice, if my understating is right about what you are saying in earlier posts here.
Then I don't understand why I can set no axis for Roll in game,
then assign keys to buttons on my stick and still get a good roll rate?
It might be a little slower then when using an axis for roll but its not dead slow and impossible to work with.

(fictionally speaking)
To be honest, for space ships which are not limited like air craft the natural control for X-axis is yaw at least imo.

Having to roll 90º and pull the stick to turn right is more aircraft-sim like and a waste of moves in a space ship, heck maybe this could be the natural behaviour when you enter a planet and avionics are switched for planetary mode, but hey, let's not add more work for Vice, which has already done a great job!

And sorry but no, my joystick is simple and responsible and I hate those joysticks with so many extra axis and therefore more points to get broken sooner, specially those with wrist roll (which are ideal for air-craft sim yaw simulation but in my books very easy to get broken).

Vice, I know what you mean I will try to test my config with high sensitivity and deadzone 0 and see if E,Q roll goes faster, but I can't try until tomorrow (work, work, work).

[Marvin]

The first real space sim, Elite, used pitch and roll ... otherwise you could've never docked with a space station (unless you bought an auto-docking computer). And, once you get used to rolling and pulling toward a target, any other way seems clumsy. In fact, had all space sims been given the ability to induce high-G, nobody would've used yaw ... unless they wanted to try "steering" while being slammed against the sides of their ship.

[ezra-s]

The first real space sim, Elite, used pitch and roll ... otherwise you could've never docked with a space station (unless you bought an auto-docking computer). And, once you get used to rolling and pulling toward a target, any other way seems clumsy. In fact, had all space sims been given the ability to induce high-G, nobody would've used yaw ... unless they wanted to try "steering" while being slammed against the sides of their ship.

Well, I have always been more in tune with:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZz4c6J4OTY

[Edited on 1-26-2012 by ezra-s]

[Marvin]

Nice. But George Lucas would balk at anything not conducive to proper flight control. Especially now, with Red Tails.

[servili007]

(fictionally speaking)
To be honest, for space ships which are not limited like air craft the natural control for X-axis is yaw at least imo.

Having to roll 90º and pull the stick to turn right is more aircraft-sim like and a waste of moves in a space ship, heck maybe this could be the natural behaviour when you enter a planet and avionics are switched for planetary mode, but hey, let's not add more work for Vice, which has already done a great job!

And sorry but no, my joystick is simple and responsible and I hate those joysticks with so many extra axis and therefore more points to get broken sooner, specially those with wrist roll (which are ideal for air-craft sim yaw simulation but in my books very easy to get broken).

Vice, I know what you mean I will try to test my config with high sensitivity and deadzone 0 and see if E,Q roll goes faster, but I can't try until tomorrow (work, work, work).

Are you planning on having a seizure while using the wrist rotation on a joystick? I really can't even fathom how one would go about breaking the rotation before the base of the joystick just slid from the force. I think it's silly to have the mentality that it's going to break assuming the joystick has any quality to it. Hell, if it did, the X52 has a rotation lock pin that you can pull to disable it all together.

Now on your second point, fictionally speaking, yaw would actually require more propulsion adjustments or the same amount when trying to fly directly at a target, because as opposed to having all axis of movement adjusted simultaneously (rolling and pulling has an equivalent movement in the yaw axis when you've finished) to head towards a specific location, otherwise you'd require serious compensation at the last moment when you're adjusting your craft's nose to line up with whatever your target is, and then bleeding off all the excess speed in the other directions.

[Edited on 1-27-2012 by servili007]

[ezra-s]

Are you planning on having a seizure while using the wrist rotation on a joystick? I really can't even fathom how one would go about breaking the rotation before the base of the joystick just slid from the force. I think it's silly to have the mentality that it's going to break assuming the joystick has any quality to it. Hell, if it did, the X52 has a rotation lock pin that you can pull to disable it all together.

Now on your second point, fictionally speaking, yaw would actually require more propulsion adjustments or the same amount when trying to fly directly at a target, because as opposed to having all axis of movement adjusted simultaneously (rolling and pulling has an equivalent movement in the yaw axis when you've finished) to head towards a specific location, otherwise you'd require serious compensation at the last moment when you're adjusting your craft's nose to line up with whatever your target is, and then bleeding off all the excess speed in the other directions.

[Edited on 1-27-2012 by servili007]

It is as simple as before this joystick I had a logitech one with that wrist axis and that axis went crazy and uncontrollable in no time, since then I buy the simpler the better joystick, and they are lasting a lot more than previous experiences, including one of those famouse thrustmaster...

About your last point, I don't really get what you are talking about, using X as yaw and Y as pitch it is as easy and moving the stick left or right and pulling or pushing a bit to point anywhere, much easier than rolling and pulling for me.

If this persists I am going to be forced to record a video on youtube to show what Im talking about!

[servili007]

It is as simple as before this joystick I had a logitech one with that wrist axis and that axis went crazy and uncontrollable in no time, since then I buy the simpler the better joystick, and they are lasting a lot more than previous experiences, including one of those famouse thrustmaster...

About your last point, I don't really get what you are talking about, using X as yaw and Y as pitch it is as easy and moving the stick left or right and pulling or pushing a bit to point anywhere, much easier than rolling and pulling for me.

If this persists I am going to be forced to record a video on youtube to show what Im talking about!

I do know what you're talking about, but still, it just seems backwards to me when playing a game where inertia matters. Must just be burned into me.