Why I like Single Player

Flash · Post by **Flash** » Thu Jun 02, 2011 2:10 pm

From post: 108006, Topic: tid=7619, author=Nigel_Strange wrote:I counted eight groups.

As for me, I'm an anti-social pessimistic liberal conservative who has done bad things and does not forgive others easily. I look at the good side of people and believe there is a ray of hope in most (not all) of us, but that good side disappears when the individual becomes part of a crowd, and that individuality is devoured by the herd instinct.

Thanks all for the lively repartee.

Yeah your right 8 groups not 2 sorry. And you are right people sure act differently when they are in a mob or anonimously on the internet. They loose their accountablity and integrity. I also try to look on the bright side of people but have difficulty with some. I also thank you for your starting this discussion. Enjoy the game. Vise sure is doing a great job satisfying both the SP and MP player.

Post by **DaveK** » Thu Jun 02, 2011 5:20 pm

how's about adding a 9th: givers and takers?

There is a lot of research that shows that in a group situation normal, decent people do cruel, inhuman things when ordered to. One example is the Stanford Prison Experiment originally carried out in 1971 - it has been repeated earlier this year, with worryingly the same result.

After the original study Zimbardo said that before the study he expected that it world be hard to staff a concentration camp from the whole of the USA. After the study he said that he could staff several camps just recruiting from within Stanford University.

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:52 am

In group dynamics you have infinite factors contributing to the dynamics like, culture, race, religion, sex, domination, submission, peer pressure, age, maturity, knowledge, wisdom, strength, weakness, will power, size, weight, training, experience, color, background, circumstances, location, time....etc...etc...etc.....The more knowledge and wisdom and proper guidance you have of how these dynamics work the better prepared you are to stand out as an individual in a righteous way no matter what the consequences are even if it means you have to die for what you believe in. After all death is not the end but just the beginning of your everlasting journey of your immortal soul. This excludes suicide bombings and terrorist acts which are wrong and cowardly and shows lack of proper guidance.
God has forbidden us to kill in the name of religion and has forbidden suicide as an easy way out to Heaven.......

Nigel_Strange · Post by **Nigel_Strange** » Sat Jun 04, 2011 6:37 am

There is no shortage of people willing to die for memes. That just goes to show how severe meme parasitism can get. People must own their memes, not be owned by them.

How many memes have died for you? The love for a meme is always unrequited, because a meme (being a non-physical information structure, like a computer virus) cannot feel love, much less return it. To me, they are cognitive parasites which must be cleansed from the mind before it can function properly.

When you boil down all of those "infinite factors" you end up with people all behaving in much the same way when they get together en masse: predictably. The more people in the group, the less human, the more predictable the group becomes. A group cannot hold a complex idea and responds to stimuli with the sophistication of a jellyfish: stimulus--> response. That's why people get trampled to death in stampedes--human stampedes!

Only individuals are unpredictable, and many of us have forgotten what it means to be an individual.

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:12 am

I agree, memes are human made imaginary false ideas and believes of the reality of a human being. That is why I mentioned there needs to be proper guidance and cultivation of each individuals uniek qualities. Just like a beautifull garden needs a gardner to bring out the uniek and beautifull fragrances, colors, fruits, vegetables and displays. If the gardner does not attend to his garden then weeds will take over the garden and false ideas and believes will take over the once beautifull garden....

If we refuse to believe in a Creator of our Human Soul and say this believe in a Creator is just another meme then who decides what is reality and what is imaginary and false? What then do we use as a standard to measure and distinguish truth from false hood?

So the point is, with proper guidance and cultivation, a large group of individuals can be dynamic and unpredictable and uniek. What makes a garden beautifull and uniek is the Unity and Diversity of the Garden. Without this Diverstiy and cultivated care by the skill full Gardner the Garden would be dull and boring, overgrown by weeds or be a desert because of lack of watering and nurturing by the Gardner......

Post by **DaveK** » Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:23 am

Hmmmm - an interesting meme

An alternative one is that there is no external guiding principle/maker - just a set of physical rules for the interaction of matter and energy

A very interesting one is that there is an external power, but that the power devised a series of rules (searched for via science) and set the whole thing going. The rest follows. This idea suggests that the exteral power is very very "clever" - the Universe runs without further external interference. But it is possible to have a Maker without the Maker being the least bit interested in us. I really don't know whether there is a Maker or not, but my experiences lead me to the conclusion that either he isn't aware of me, or isn't bothered about me, or has a very unpleasant sense of humour. Such a view helps to make natural disasters more understandable - Earthquakes are the result of plate tectonics which is the result of convection laws. The thousands of deaths of innocents is a by-product (a sort of cosmic collateral damage)

The problem is in your definition - memes are simply widely shared human ideas, not "imaginary, false ideas". By definition all ideas are imaginary in the sense that they are created in human minds, but you are using "imaginary" in the sense of false, as in unicorns and fairies - the addition of the reinforcer "false" is that part that you are taking as axiomatic without proof. I believe it's called "faith" and a vital part of any religious belief.

Edit: I'm not sure that this is the appropriate place to discuss religious belief, especially in the context that you believe that "God has forbidden us to kill in the name of religion . . . " Read the Old Testament of your Bible at the commands God gives to the Israelites in their interaction with the Caananites, including death to all males, slavery for all females, even slaughter for all the farm animals. You might find a reading of the Qu'ran interesting - like the Bible it has many inconsistencies about dealings with those of other faiths.

Finally I found that the reachings of religious leaders are easier to evaluate after reading the Bible and the Qu'ran from cover to cover rather than cherry picking the bits that fit in with topical predjudices

[Edited on 5-6-2011 by DaveK]

Nigel_Strange · Post by **Nigel_Strange** » Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:51 pm

Yes, this thread has gotten a little off track, and I count myself partly responsible for that.

In any case, that's why I like singleplayer.

Post by **DaveK** » Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:26 pm

sorry

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Sun Jun 05, 2011 9:34 pm

I simply stated the fact that all Man made Ideas about the Reality of Man (Gods Creation) are false and inacurate to be used to come to an understanding of Individuals and Group Dynamics.

A creature can not exist without a Creator. Art can not exist without an Artist. Furniture can not exist without a Carpenter.....Principle of Cause and Effect.

Another concept to take in consideration while discussing this topic is that the created can not understand or comprehend the Creator. A piece of Art can not understand or comprehend the Artist.
The created is at the will and mercy of its Creator. God Verily Doeth what He willeth.

Gods Plan and Will= The Reality of Man, the Human Soul=Science and Religion. These two, Science and Religion, have to go hand in hand. Religion without Science leads to Superstition and Science without Religion leads to Materialism.

This Planet Earth is for a reason called Mother Earth it is our womb to prepare us for our ever lasting journey after death. While a child is in the womb of its Mother it has no concept or understanding of the world he is going to be born in and all its Ideas and understandings(memes) are inadequate for it to comprehend life after death. This life after dead, our ever lasting journey of our Soul towards our Creator is the True Reality of Man.

I'm not trying to discuss religious beliefs here, just merely point out some facts given to us by our Creator to understand this topic. Because without this understanding and guidance by Gods Manifestions(Abraham, Mozes, Boedha, Krishna, Zoroaster, Christ, Mohammed, The Bab and Baha'u'llah we will fail.

When I said God has forbidden us to kill in the name of religion and to commit suicide as an easy way out to Heaven. I meant according to the latest Manifeststation of God, for this day and age, Baha'u'llah.

And yes I agree reading the Bible and the Qu'ran from Cover to Cover put things in the proper perspective. And there is the Latest Book where I get my Inspiration and information from, The Book of Certitude by Baha'u'llah which confirms the Bible and the Qu'ran as part of Gods Progressive Revelation.

These are the Guides I'm talking about. God has sent us these Guides so that we can understand His Will and Plan for Humanity. But we turn away from these Guides and then say God is not intrested in us or does not bother about us. These Guides have suffered willingly every Atrocity inflicted on them because God Created them out of Love for us to Guide us.

When God Commands to kill it is in different circumstances and ussually after His Patience and Endurance with the Atrocities commited by those commanded to be killed has been exausted.

All True Manifestations of God have only been ordered to kill in extreme circumstances and most of the time it was out of self defence......One of the commandments of the Old Testament since the time of Mozes is: Thou shalt not Kill!. Still People against the will of their Prophets and their Creator have commited Atrocities in the name of Religion to justify their doings.

God Created Science and the rules and laws that govern it. Just like an Artist that creates the rules and laws that defines a Painting. Now the Artist can change the rules and laws and create new ones that define a sculpture. Science in it self is relative.....

Because I'm also a Human being, I to have my own understanding(memes) of what I read and try to convey to others in my own words. But at least now people can read for themselves and draw their own conclusion. In the past people had to rely on Preachers. It says in the Bible in the End of Times when called to judgement it is not enough anymore to say I did not know! Cause every one is given the opportunity one way or another to investigate the truth for themselves....

If everything was just an interaction of matter and energy following a set of physical rules then where did these rules come from. Rules and Laws define. Just like the Artist defines and creates the rules and laws that differentiate a painting from a sculpture and vice versa. Matter and Energy alone can not create a painting or sculpture. Matter and Energy alone can not create a Human Being but they are neccessary ingredients for our Creator to create and define us. We are proof of the Existance of our Creator. Just like a Painting or Sculpture is proof of the Exsistance of the Artist that created them.

If you deny the Art work of the Artist as proof of the Artist's exsistance then you deny the existance of the Art work. Because your saying there is no proof so the Art work does not exist. So if you deny your exsistance as proof of the Existance of a Divine Creator then you deny your own existance!.....

[Edited on 6-5-2011 by Maarschalk]

Rush · Post by **Rush** » Sun Jun 05, 2011 9:39 pm

Wow...this thread started from a post on a website and ended being a theological discussion. I'm impressed

However, I really dislike a lot of types of multiplayer, and one of those is WoW. Anyway multiplayer can be great, and shouldn't be lucrative, like gold farming etc..
It's from that mechanism that come bad things. Too much money = bad. Always

Post by **DaveK** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 2:59 pm

From post: 108171, Topic: tid=7619, author=Maarschalk wrote:I simply stated the fact that all Man made Ideas about the Reality of Man (Gods Creation) are false and inacurate to be used to come to an understanding of Individuals and Group Dynamics.

A creature can not exist without a Creator. Art can not exist without an Artist. Furniture can not exist without a Carpenter.....Principle of Cause and Effect.

[Edited on 6-5-2011 by Maarschalk]

Fun but, just to take the first two . . .

first statement - it isn't a fact - it's your belief. If it is a fact then there is no room for faith - faith is a requirenment for a theological belief - if God manifested and proved His existence then there would be no room for faith and hence no need for a reward for faith - hence no Heaven - hence the reason the faithful believe that God doesn't prove His existence. Non believers take the non manifestation of God as evidence that He doesn't in fact exist

second statement - a pebble can exist because of erosion . . . Principle of Cause and Effect. No need for God or a god.

I'm afraid that I can't comment on the rest because it is a manifesto of your beliefs and your faith. There is no factual evidence to discuss the validity of, so as Ludwig Wittgenstein says: Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.

I envy your ability to maintain belief in the face of reason - it would be very comforting to believe that something so powerful cares about and is caring for me - sadly my experience makes that act of faith too great a step to take. My studies in philosophy, particulary morality/ethics, epistomology and logic make it difficult to incorporate the usual "all powerful, all knowing, perfectly Good" God into the real world.

I commend to you Antony Flew's short monograph "Thinking about Thinking, Or do I sincerely want to be right?"

Post by **DaveK** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:03 pm

From post: 108173, Topic: tid=7619, author=Rush wrote:Too much money = bad. Always

Too little money = bad (always?)

The hard part is deciding on how much is enough (which of course = good)

Post by **Marvin** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:46 pm

No such thing as too much money. You can always give it away. Unfortunately, the reverse is not true.

Dingo · Post by **Dingo** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 8:02 pm

please realize that Mercs don't get healthcare or 401k plans. It seems like a lot of pointless money now, but with inflation and by the age of retirement...

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:39 pm

From post: 108196, Topic: tid=7619, author=DaveK wrote:
From post: 108171, Topic: tid=7619, author=Maarschalk wrote:I simply stated the fact that all Man made Ideas about the Reality of Man (Gods Creation) are false and inacurate to be used to come to an understanding of Individuals and Group Dynamics.

A creature can not exist without a Creator. Art can not exist without an Artist. Furniture can not exist without a Carpenter.....Principle of Cause and Effect.

[Edited on 6-5-2011 by Maarschalk]
Fun but, just to take the first two . . .

first statement - it isn't a fact - it's your belief. If it is a fact then there is no room for faith - faith is a requirenment for a theological belief - if God manifested and proved His existence then there would be no room for faith and hence no need for a reward for faith - hence no Heaven - hence the reason the faithful believe that God doesn't prove His existence. Non believers take the non manifestation of God as evidence that He doesn't in fact exist

second statement - a pebble can exist because of erosion . . . Principle of Cause and Effect. No need for God or a god.

On your first comment:
When I'm talking about the Reality of Man, I'm talking about the Human Soul this is the Reality of Man According to any Scriptures from the Manifestations of God. And any Ideas or memes about the Human Soul from our relative current perspective will be in acurate. And yes, this believe in a Human Soul created in the Image of God you can call Faith. God does Manifest Himself indirectly through His Messengers, Prophets as I mentioned the Names of Most known ones a few post above. Christ said: "No one comes to the Father but through Me" Other Messengers have made similar Statements and that is why many followers think that their Religion is the only True one. God does not Manifest Himself directly to any normal Human Being because we would not be able to bare it. If we would feel the complete manifestations and attributes from our own sun we would incinerate and cease to exist. That is why God created Special Souls, Perfect Reflecting Mirrors through which he can guide us and Manifest Himself And Reveal His Purpose for our Creation.
The Basic underlying Pricipals of all True Religions, and Only God Knows which ones they are and tells us through His Manifestations which ones they are, are the same. God has given us a Covenant, Pact a Promise to never leave us alone and give us guidance through His Manifestation which He will sent to us from time to time as we Progress. It is our choice to turn away from this Guidance. But do not blame Him when it was your choice to turn away from His Guidance.

Casualties of Natural Disasters blaming it as an Act of God or the Wrath of God is also not right even if God can do as He pleaseth. God has given us the knowledge, guidance and sciences to know not to build in Earthquake and Flood zones. And many a times He warned His faithfull believers through His Manifestiations of impending disasters.

Now on your second comment: About the pebble and erosion.

You have to keep things in their relative perspective. I was talking about living creatures which a pebble is not.

Now from the pebble's relative perspective who washed up on the shore next to a jagged rock can not prove to the rock the exsistance of the erosion that shaped it. Although the smoothness of the pebble is a Manifestation of the exsistance of the Errosion that shaped it. Because our Soul was created in the image of God, we have the ability to cognitive reasoning and logic through Sciences and Religion to prove to another Human Soul that the Pebble was formed by errosion and even by what kind of errosion. So we can observe the Cause and Effect and use it as proof relatively in this physical realm. Because the rock can not prove or manifest that errosion does exist, does not mean erosion does not exist.

The Child in the Womb of its Mother can not prove the Earth exists or that it has a Father to another Child in another Womans Womb or to each other if the Woman was carying twins or sextuplets...LOL. They would only be able to do so after they have been born in this physical world and have reached the maturity, guidance and acquired the knowledge to do so. So also are we told by the Manifestations of God that it is difficult for another Human Being to proof the Existance of God to another Human Being without the proper Maturity, Knowledge and Guidance from His Manifestations. God does not need to proof His Existance and even thou He does we do not understand and therefore can not speak of it and there fore say He does not Exist....

My American is not the Best but it is better then my English...

I do not want to sound like a know it all or want to be right nor is the intend to offend any one, but it seems when Faith or Religion is brought into any discussion some people toes get stepped on. And people shy away from the discussion.
My goal is only to help others by sharing my limited understanding of concepts relating to Human Interactions, Science and Religion and hoping that this will help people who have difficulties and hardships in their lives.

After all the Topic was about Human Interaction related to Single Play and Multiplay....

:)

SDWeimer · Post by **SDWeimer** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:22 am

No point in continuing to argue about whether or not there is a god, as everyone has a choice to decide what you want to believe and as people we should respect others choices, because I know that I do not want any person or persons to infringe on ones right to choose.

Nigel_Strange · Post by **Nigel_Strange** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:50 am

Maars, although I appreciate your attempt to enlighten us all, you are like a child trying to describe color to a blind person. There is nothing you can say that will show him the color, and unless he can see the color for himself, he cannot know it. In fact, he cannot be absolutely sure that the child is not also blind, because he cannot see through the child's eyes any more than he can see through his own.

Post by **DaveK** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 7:20 am

I agree totally. In fact I envy those who have faith. I'm a scientist by training (which does not preclude a belief in God), study philosophy as a hobby and try to live life within a humanist moral code.

I worked on an Anglican Church school for twenty five years (before retiring three years ago), debated religion with our bishop and the school chaplain, acted as a role model of respectful agnostic to the kids (who so often go through a period of doubt in their early teens or who were sent by their parents because we are a caring school) - helped to maintain a reflective silence amongst the masses during school communions and explained the need for respect for other's beliefs.

The scientist/philosopher part of me kicks in when statements of faith are presented as factual arguments. I have no quarrel with statements of faith as long as they are presented as such. I meant no disrespect at all. I enjoy the cut and thrust of debate, but this life is too short and fragile to waste it fighting (as opposed to enjoying a debate

or passing through being it oblivious to damage or offense you might be causing others.

The important thing is to be true to yourself whilst getting as much from life as you can whilst doing (as a minimum) no hurt or harm to others and (better) making the world around you a better place by your actions and example. I don't think that monotheists, polytheists, agnostics or atheists could bridle at that - we just come from different perspectives as to why should try to go through life in a moral and ethical way, supporting each other, protecting the weak and disadvantaged. - as the medical oath says - "Do No Harm"

I hope that the tone of my contributions reflected my respect for Maars's viewpoint and for his right to hold it. If it did not, then I apologise - communication without being able to project nuances by voice tone and body language is a blunt instrument, I'm afraid

[Edited on 7-6-2011 by DaveK]

MMaggio · Post by **MMaggio** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:42 am

Excuse me, but don't you ppl think this thread has gone way off topic and has gotten out of hand?
As it is now it borders on violating forum rules and does not contribute to our game.
I would like to suggest that this conversation be stopped before the thread is closed.
I thank you in advance.

Dingo · Post by **Dingo** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:51 am

{applause}

Nigel_Strange · Post by **Nigel_Strange** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:00 pm

I'm fine with stopping it. There is nothing more to say on the original topic. I do not have the power to close it, though, so I am just going to stop posting.

Post by **DaveK** » Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:00 pm

ditto

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:28 am

Agreed, I did not feel offended by any one here, I just hope I did not offend any one either. I have no problem with a blind person not being able to see. What hurts is that many with perfect eyes do not want to see the truth or with perfect hearing do not want to hear the truth and therefore fail to stand up to protect and help the weak and disadvantaged. I applaud those who do see and hear with their own eyes and ears and give the benefit of the doubt to investigate the truth for themselves, after all it takes time......