Marvin's Proper Etiquette for Requesting a Game Change

Stilton · Post by **Stilton** » Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:31 am

I've gone back to edit this initial post, so its clearer as to my idea.
This will not be fixed by a user-made cockpit mod.

If i change my ship design using the ingame features to be something like a Jedi Starfighter..
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9 ... WaN5j193oA

OR even something that's more realistic for the crowd who'll use the above design as a crutch for why this shouldnt be implemented (such as the very effective and combat tested A-10. )..
http://www.samildanach.co.uk/Arma2_A10.jpg

and look around with TrackIR, i should be able to see the front of my ship out through the front of the cockpit window.. But i can't...

And that's it really...
I'd like to be able to see the ship through the window, but i can imagine that when you're viewing from cockpit view the ship isnt even rendered lol...

This is a shame as judging clearence to objects, reversing and in general helping to add to the immersion that helps remind you:
'you are sitting in a spaceship that is connected to the virtual world'

This has nothing to do with modding the cockpit, preferably it would be better if all frames allowed this, so when you are changing your ship layout/design ingame, the changes are visible from within cockpit view.

To Compare, for the realism nuts, when sitting inside a plane, if you look out the window.. you see wings.. Like the A-10 Example from the game Arma, i show a picture in a few posts.

The counters -

-- This is not realistic for a spaceship:

Compared to?

-- I dont want the game to be 20Gb:

Im talking about changing code, all the existing art features required are ingame.
I have not, nor am i going to guess how long it would take devs to implement this ..If he wants to give me a quote though, id consider it.

-- Modern day planes comparison blah blah

Look at the A10, the pilot can see all around and his wings and engines behind him. Furthermore modern day pilots only really need to see 'forward' being that's the only way the plane can go...
Regardless if you want max visibility just Dont Use the Option. Use the existing No-HUD mode.

I think due to the flight characteristics of EM, it would be better to compare the ships to modern day helicopters, in terms of maneuverability.. That said, its far easier to land a helicopter when you know how much clearence you have on either side.. ..They usually have a guy onboard whos job it is to tell the pilot this, but we dont in EM. Id settle for some nice visual indicators lol..

What would reversing/parking your car be like if you can only see forward and cant judge clearence to objects very well..

Honestly though, this topic got far more attention than was really necessary for an Optional feature to be added.. People seemed to think me requesting this Option would affect them.

Also, none of this is really necessary because it wont affect the gameplay with the state of the current collision system.. There's no point in worrying too much about clearence to objects when your ship has what appears to be discrepancies between the collision mesh and the actual ship mesh.

And, my criticisms above are like my only criticism with the entire game, other than that the game is totally awesome btw.

[Edited on 5-19-2011 by Stilton]

[Edited on 5-19-2011 by Stilton]

[Edited on 5-19-2011 by Stilton]

[Edited on 5-19-2011 by Stilton]

Post by **Marvin** » Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:56 am

The cockpit and the ship exterior are two different meshes. If you want to see the front of your ship while in the cockpit, you'll need to add it to the cockpit mesh.

And warsign created some really good mods to replace the default flora of EM.

Accountant · Post by **Accountant** » Sun Mar 20, 2011 1:04 am

Hi Stilton, welcome to the forums!

You are correct that the ship is not rendered from the cockpit. Any exterior views of the cockpit would require the external portions of the ship to be modeled in the same object as the cockpit. However, keep in mind that many times it is not possible to see the ship from the cockpit of many modern airliners, unless they have a particularly large nose area. I would imagine a view such as that provided by the Starfighter would be an exception rather than the rule.

Regarding the planet vegetation, I agree with you. I would not mind seeing higher-fidelity vegetation that is a bit more to scale.

-Accountant

Stilton · Post by **Stilton** » Sun Mar 20, 2011 1:10 am

Thanks for the Welcome..

Yeh, thats what i had assumed..

Adding the exterior to the cockpit mesh in a 3d modelling package would be fine, but wouldnt reflect the changes made by updating the designs done ingame.. Youd have to reexport your custom HUD/Cockpit model everytime you edited your ship ingame...

It's also a lot of work for something a quite small which i think could be accomplished better done by the developer lol.
It just feels it like it should be already there, you can customize your ship.. so why cant you see the result of your customization of the ship from the cockpit and only from exterior view.

If the ship exterior was rendered, but not 2-sided from the interior - you'd be able to see portions positioned from inside but you wouldnt have to worry about viewing the inside of the exterior ship model.

Finally i agree, this is an exception, you cant see the nose of a plane from inside the cockpit.. You can almost always look out the window and see the wing though? right? and props.. and if its got a propeller on the nose.. You can see that.

So i dont think its an unreasonable request if you're going to go down the route of comparing it to aircraft

)

Still, like i said.. It was just a thought of what i would find a nice feature.. Because when im flying around the scale sometimes feels very wierd switching between interior/exterior view and the interior feels a bit 'detatched' i feel this would fix that.

cheers

Accountant · Post by **Accountant** » Sun Mar 20, 2011 2:24 am

Haha, I guess you are right about the props and wing.

I think the primary reason the ship is not rendered in cockpit view is feasibility. Though not a game developer myself, I imagine the difficulty in eliminating clipping and integrating the two models (which may be slightly incompatible, shape-wise) would be difficult at best with the ability of users to create custom designs. Other games that show the external craft from the cockpit do not have the ability to customize placement of ship components, from my limited experience.

I'm not trying to discourage you or disagree with your suggestion, by the way (I actually quite like it). I am just trying to provide some reasons why you don't, and may not, see it implemented

-Accountant

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Sun Mar 20, 2011 4:13 am

Hi Stilton, welcome to the game and forum. Hope to see you out there some time....

[Edited on 3-20-2011 by Maarschalk]

Avenger · Post by **Avenger** » Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:24 am

I am happy there is a cockpit, most space sim games don't even bother with building one, all you have is a HUD.

Stilton · Post by **Stilton** » Sun Mar 20, 2011 4:28 pm

From post: 103997, Topic: tid=7392, author=Accountant wrote:I imagine the difficulty in eliminating clipping and integrating the two models (which may be slightly incompatible, shape-wise) would be difficult at best with the ability of users to create custom designs. Other games that show the external craft from the cockpit do not have the ability to customize placement of ship components, from my limited experience.

-Accountant

Again, thanks for the welcome guys!

Im not a game developer either, i am a 3d modeller... i know a bit about game development which is why i tried to give suggestions on -how- it could be implemented...

If the Ship exterior is rendered with Backface culling (one sided) so its invisible from the inside.. it could simply be scaled up and placed 'around' the camera...

The benefit/drawback of being able to block your own view by placing components.. Believe it or not is what i would like.. I want to be able to look out through the cockpit and see my ship's wing

(Im kinda repeating myself, but some people dont appear to be 'getting it' - And im not trying to ram my opinion down anyones throat i just dont see this as being complicated or hard to do.)

cheers yall
Stilton

[Edited on 3-27-2011 by Stilton]

Stilton · Post by **Stilton** » Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:36 am

So, i know its not exactly game breaking but?
What are the likelyhood of this ever changing? was it worth me bringing it up, etc?

Do the dev(s) appreciate people posting thoughts like this?

I mean personally, im not sure how the game works but in terms of things needing changed.. Someone else commented elsewhere the world feels dead until you arrive.. Or better put they said something like "The AI feels like its there because you're there" and i kinda of agree.. I turn up, and people start warping in.. But rarely do i travel to a new place and there's people already there going about their business..

Perhaps its my bad luck with timing my arrivals when everywheres dead..

..But those are the 2 main improvements i personally would love to see in this game.. Personally.
Thanks for reading, i hope you try to implement these.
(Unless someone has some obvious reason for why it would be a game breaking feature, doubtful)

Stiltonator

MMaggio · Post by **MMaggio** » Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:14 am

I can assure you Stilton, that Vice, the author, reads every post.
Some suggestions are adopted almost immediately, while others are written down in, "The Book" and acted upon when it's feasible. So all suggestions are appreciated.
As for me, I'm not sure I understand. There is traffic of all kinds warping in, passing thru and sometimes the big cap ships can get in your way, so I know there is plenty of traffic out there. Perhaps you were very far out off reguilar shipping paths.

warsign · Post by **warsign** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:15 am

All games, sim games as well using same method like Evochron. Cockpit and ship model has different resolution, I mean different poly counts, different details. Right method is this method, it is easy and flexible. I can give many game names using this method. But I couldn't see yours anywhere yet. It seems "not applicable".

If the Ship exterior is rendered with Backface culling (one sided) so its invisible from the inside.. it could simply be scaled up and placed 'around' the camera... The benefit/drawback of being able to block your own view by placing components.. Believe it or not is what i would like.. I want to be able to look out through the cockpit and see my ship's wing

(Im kinda repeating myself, but some people dont appear to be 'getting it' - And im not trying to ram my opinion down anyones throat i just dont see this as being complicated or hard to do.)

Design your ship frame first, work on its materials. After finishing it, use it to design your interrior. It is same. It is not hard to do as you said and more flexible! If you change your ship's outside view, merge outside model in to your cockpit file. If you know using your 3d software well, If you change outside model, they will be updated in cockpit file too! I am tallking about differents model blocks in file...

Game's engine is working well with one sided surfaces, but I suggest you use them wisely...

It is very easy to achieve your wishes, all you have to do is reading customizing kit...

If the Ship exterior is rendered with Backface culling (one sided) so its invisible from the inside..

Best part of this message.

Invisable from the inside??? With one sided surfaces??? If it is invisable from the inside, it is invisable from the inside. I mean, how you see your ship's wings etc !!!

I guess I didnt get this part...

Adding the exterior to the cockpit mesh in a 3d modelling package would be fine, but wouldnt reflect the changes made by updating the designs done ingame.. Youd have to reexport your custom HUD/Cockpit model everytime you edited your ship ingame...

You are kidding, right? I hope so...

All you said above has been done. Click on my signature and check my mods out...

[Edited on 3-28-2011 by warsign]

Stilton · Post by **Stilton** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:23 pm

I just have to start and say, warsign your english isn't the best but the tone of your message is a little condescending... I'm not asking for a different method to render the cockpits.

Im simply asking that the details changed from editing the outside of the model.. which you can do ingame, with the current features.. Is reflected when viewing from cockpit view.

Other games may use this 'method' to display different models. Yes.
But they try and match those models up so the cockpit doesnt feel detached from the rest of the ship..

I also feel if your giving players the ability to edit the ship.. This is a definite thing that should be worked on.. To reflect the changes from all viewpoints.

I honestly dont have time to explain the rest of my post to you warsign, its obvious you dont speak english as a first language and i dont want to be rude but there's no point in me explaining further intermediate 3d modelling concepts.. when its not really important lol.
I only include this information because i thought it might help the devs i wasnt hoping to explain how to 3d model to people

3d modelling is my full time job and i dont PAY for games to then make them myself..

I might choose to do that in my spare time, with some games.. But again.. This was a feature request/bug fix to the dev..

I wasnt asking people to explain how i can mod the game myself.

I hope you're not one of the Devs, if so im really dissapointed...
I'd rather have heard "Yes this maybe implemented in future" - even if it was in the year 3000 as opposed to 'do it yourself'

cheers

[ Backface culling to make something invisible from the inside is a very simply process that you can have explained to you if you go and watch a few tutorials on 3d modelling.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Back-face_culling ]

[Edited on 3-28-2011 by Stilton]

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:47 pm

Warsigns English is not the best but his modeling of crafts is!....LOL....You can check his mods out, and many of his mods you can see the wings, engines and other stuff from inside the cockpit. So if any one can help you with modded views from inside the cockpit it is Warsign. He is Turkish, and he is not condecending in any way or he does not mean it that way. He just tries to help...

[Edited on 3-28-2011 by Maarschalk]

Ravenfeeder · Post by **Ravenfeeder** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:41 am

U beat me to it Maarschalk. Bloody cheek of the newbie!

Stilton · Post by **Stilton** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 2:37 am

Ok, im really getting off on the wrong foot here..

Im not trying to be cheeky, im just saying.. I think it'd be a real improvement if you could look out the cockpit and see the ship designs whilst you're playing..
You can change this whilst playing, so continually adjusting small changes i make to my cockpit mesh whilst i do it to my frame isnt really feasable.. Plus its something i think would be beneficial to all players and the game.

When people reply with stuff like this:
"All games, sim games as well using same method like Evochron. Cockpit and ship model has different resolution, I mean different poly counts, different details. Right method is this method, it is easy and flexible. I can give many game names using this method. But I couldn't see yours anywhere yet. It seems "not applicable". "

I just get the feeling hes saying "you're wrong/what you're requesting is impossible.." and basically i dont buy that lol - at all..

Im not the developer, so i can only request what id like.. To be able to see my 'tie fighter wings' when i look out the window.. Its a great game and i really appreciate the time spent on it.

Its just currently, the cockpit view feels a bit detached from the ship, its hard to describe.. but i feel this would help the immersion..

..Finally, Im not here demanding anything... Im just asking if its feasable and i feel the dev/programming department would be the only person/people really qualified to answer, no offence lol..
Also i dont think this is anything to do with modelling custom meshes, this would be an option to turn on displaying the external mesh whilst in cockpit view i guess....

..I hope someone understands what im talking about lol im getting the feeling like nobody does what with all these suggestions of modelling my own cockpit meshes lol.

cheers

[edit - This picture explains my ploy perfectly.]
[img=512x384]http://www.actionjunkie.co.uk/Spaceship.jpg[/img]

You can have a little teehee at my mad diagram skills. Obviously the ship mesh would need scaling up considerably.. And the textures may look a bit funny at that scaled resolution.. But i sure wouldnt care, as ive said.. if only i could see my jedi starfighter wings

[Edited on 3-29-2011 by Stilton]

[Edited on 3-29-2011 by Vice]

Accountant · Post by **Accountant** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:02 am

..I hope someone understands what im talking about lol im getting the feeling like nobody does what with all these suggestions of modelling my own cockpit meshes lol

I *think* most of us understand what you mean. The suggestions are meant as more of a suggestion to get around the current game engine limitation.

Ultimately, you are correct that the programming department is the only one who can provide a qualified answer. That would be Vice, the sole developer of the game. As MMaggio stated above, I am sure he has read your request. Hopefully we will see the option in a future update. If not, maybe it will make it into a future game. Assuming this is all feasible and, perhaps more importantly, looks good.

-Accountant

Post by **Vice** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:25 am

Here are some of my thoughts on the subject.

Other games may use this 'method' to display different models. Yes.
But they try and match those models up so the cockpit doesnt feel detached from the rest of the ship..

Many games don't even bother to render a full 3D cockpit in the first place. They just display a flat layer of 2D text and sprites in the form of a HUD, often resulting in feeling like you are more of a camera operator rather than a pilot. Some do render external structures of the ship, yet lack any form of cockpit cage local to the player. So there are several directions developers have chosen to go in this regard. I'll explain mine below.

With Evochron (and my other space-sims), I've elected to go with a full 3D cockpit design plus an in-scene 3D rendered HUD (rather than static/flat sprites), but intentionally omit other structures that might obscure the pilot's view. This is in line with current jet fighter technology being developed that 'filters' out obstacles so the pilot has an unobstructed view. One example (F35 iirc) includes a helmet system that even removes the pilot's own legs, the floor of the aircraft, surrounding cockpit structures, and other obstacles to give the pilot a clear view all around them. I also give the player in the game the option to filter out the 3D cockpit structures entirely, leaving only the HUD behind. But to me, having at least an optional 3D cockpit builds on a sense of being a pilot. Seeing canards, cannons, wings, plating, panels, etc, in addition to that would merely add to view obstruction in exchange for some kind of subjective benefit.

It would not seem unreasonable that this technology will be expanded on in the future, particuarly for spacecraft designed for combat, where perhaps even the glass of the cockpit would help filter out local structures in view so the pilot could see clearly outside of the cockpit of their ship (even through it), just as modern jet fighters can utilize the same technology to see through their structures.

It's something that could certainly be done given the right z-depth and scaling attributes. And it's not something I'm ruling out entirely either. Since it is currently available in the form of modding and you've got a specific design in mind as you mentioned, I'd certainly be interested in seeing any concepts you might develop to enable/test such an option.

Post by **Marvin** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:30 am

Which is why I customize my ship so that the wings are always behind the firewall. Which begs another question: How would you coordinate the ability to reconfigure your ship (wings, tail, engines, etc.) with this "I can see my wings" cockpit?

Stilton · Post by **Stilton** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:18 am

Wow it is great to see a dev reply.. Glad everyone gets what im saying too.
The 3d cockpit you have built is cool, definately.. It does indeed add to the immersion for me..

But yeh that's the whole thread Marvin

You just managed to sum up what i was requesting in that question, wish i'd worded it like that lol. That's what i was requesting, a feature that auto-updates.. Your design changes to the ship reflected from within the cockpit..

But i guess with this game, it'd have to be something like that, using a copy of the external ship model/version that's update on the fly according to the design changes made ingame.. Which then has the relative cockpit position on the external models main 'chasis/body' piece (cant think what its called) anchored to the camera.. And all this is one-sided, so you can only see the wings and things and wouldnt have to worry about not being able to see 'out' through the external mesh.
That's how it'd be coordinated.. That'd be my suggestion anyway

But as to implementing it, good luck with that :)l...If you do manage to put it into a future iteration of the game ill be sure to buy it

[Edited on 3-29-2011 by Stilton]

Akrion Xxarr · Post by **Akrion Xxarr** » Fri May 13, 2011 1:31 am

The concept here is a pretty good one and, I feel, one that shouldn't be too incredibly difficult to implement.

I have an idea that may help Stilton's concept along here:
First let me point at Egosoft's X games. The way they go about placing their first person camera is by quite literally placing it somewhere on the physical model. So it's a little bit like being in 3rd person with your camera zoomed really close to the ship. I know they do this with X3:TC, X3:R and X2 (Which actually has unique cockpits for each ship class).

With this in mind for Evochron; what if you essentially make a modular camera that can be placed on the ship alike everything else? Imagine this scenario:

Instead of working with the base ship frame & cockpit, separate the frame from the cockpit and let the user place the cockpit much like they would place wings. The cockpit will act as the camera position for your first person view.

From this point you only need to render the ship which, if done like the X series, shouldn't be any different than rendering it in 3rd person, because you'd be treating 1st person as just another perspective of 3rd person.

This, however, would bring about the problem of the user placing the cockpit inside the ship or something in front of the cockpit, the solutions of which could probably be debated until the end of time.

Anyway, just thought I'd throw words out there.

[Edited on 5-13-2011 by Akrion Xxarr]

Post by **Marvin** » Fri May 13, 2011 6:14 am

From post: 107095, Topic: tid=7392, author=Akrion Xxarr wrote:...one that shouldn't be too incredibly difficult to implement.

No matter how it's said, that part always cracks me up.

Akrion Xxarr · Post by **Akrion Xxarr** » Fri May 13, 2011 6:27 am

From post: 107099, Topic: tid=7392, author=Marvin wrote:
From post: 107095, Topic: tid=7392, author=Akrion Xxarr wrote:...one that shouldn't be too incredibly difficult to implement.
No matter how it's said, that part always cracks me up.

Well, it shouldn't. Most of the functionality is already present:
Movable camera? Check.
Modular ship design? Check.
Ship rendered in third person (or at all, for that matter)? Check.
.. I'm not speaking out of complete ignorance to programming. Unless the game was programmed without any flexibility in mind, relative to other components of the game, it shouldn't be too incredibly difficult.

[Edited on 5-13-2011 by Akrion Xxarr]

Stilton · Post by **Stilton** » Fri May 13, 2011 12:57 pm

I wasnt speaking out of ignorance either when i posted...

i have programming and modelling experience and now, one published game to my name... It's also something i feel would add to the immersion, im glad i'm not alone with this feeling.

Sadly the resident expert modders english failed him, he couldnt understand my perfectly understandable post and resorted to telling me i was making jokes?

And the reason i try to stay away from forums rears its ugly head..

..a few of the 'regulars' tell you either mod it in yourself or F.off... Who are you to come to their territory with your ideas n stuff. The bloody cheek. Gotta be joking right?

( behold you have under 500 posts and came here to make a suggestion - you are but a lowly newb - can't believe a fellow scot would talk down to me like that, i am ashamed of my own race. )

Moving on though...

With Evochron (and my other space-sims), I've elected to go with a full 3D cockpit design plus an in-scene 3D rendered HUD (rather than static/flat sprites), but intentionally omit other structures that might obscure the pilot's view. This is in line with current jet fighter technology being developed that 'filters' out obstacles so the pilot has an unobstructed view. One example (F35 iirc) includes a helmet system that even removes the pilot's own legs, the floor of the aircraft, surrounding cockpit structures, and other obstacles to give the pilot a clear view all around them. I also give the player in the game the option to filter out the 3D cockpit structures entirely, leaving only the HUD behind. But to me, having at least an optional 3D cockpit builds on a sense of being a pilot. Seeing canards, cannons, wings, plating, panels, etc, in addition to that would merely add to view obstruction in exchange for some kind of subjective benefit.

Not trying to bragg but i have 3 screens @ 5040*1050 resolution.. So, i dont mind obstructions like being able to see my wings.. But, that's what you're going for and its your game at the end of the day so at least i got an answer cheers

Although, i think in those jets.. They have one eye for that HUD system you're talking about.. then they use their other eye to look at cockpit instruments/etc..
I could be wrong, often am, but thats how they do it with the helicopter monocular i believe.. You still have one eye looking around naturally..

..Because what happens when all that fancy equipment breaks... and suddenly some genius has decided to replace your front window/windshield with sheet metal...

[Edited on 5-13-2011 by Stilton]

Stilton · Post by **Stilton** » Fri May 13, 2011 2:24 pm

We're asking for an option mate, not trying to force anything on anyone..

All the relevant models needed to pull this off are already in the game, all that needs to be done is a bit of code added.

To have a large one-sided mesh (the same one currently being used for external view, the one that gets updated when you moves your components about on your ship) enabled when viewing from the cockpit view..

Because its one sided, you could see through the 'backside' of the polygons.. But when you get to viewing the wings, because you are not 'inside the wing' and viewing from the centre-point of the cockpit.. you will be viewing the front-side polygons of the wings.. hence you will see the wings, but not the interior of the external-ship-model.

Its not difficult.. But Im definately not here demanding anything

Furthermore im definately not asking it be enabled as default so its forced on people who dont like the idea... Just an option to 'turn on ship exterior from cockpit view' would be a really nice option.

You could even say its an 'unsupported' option for when it fcks up... Or make it so its only enable-able if you tweak a text file or two.

Finally, you can see your propellers and your wings when you look out the window of modern day aircraft right? So enough with the its not fitting with current combat aircraft cus thats tosh

You can see your wings and/or your propellers..

We have trackIR.. its all i ask is id like to see my wings lol. Other sims do it too! [Wings of Prey, before anyone asks]

Stilton · Post by **Stilton** » Fri May 13, 2011 2:38 pm

I would love to hear some real reasons 'against' this idea though... justifiable reasons.. Other than its not realistic for the laz0r firing spaceships..

Also its not really necessary for our modern day fighter jets to be able to see their wings because they cant reverse... etc.

However when flying a harrier jumpjet doing a vertical landing on a carrier its nice to be able to see your wings and nose to be able to judge if you're about to hit the air-control tower on the carrier..
For me anyway, i find it quite beneficial.

I cant imagine there's much call for that though when all you're doing is flying forward at extreme speeds and don't need to delicately manuever a giant millenium falcon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1lG9ZDaxfs

Also In this video of freespace2 mod, the guy looks over at his big guns... mounted off to the side - they load in place or whatever and he fires and hes all like pew pew pew asplosions.. Which is cool..

I'd like to be able to do that in this game.. See the missiles mounted on my wings fire away... I have the side monitors and the trackIR's.. but no wings.

Again, just the option... or ability to turn on the exterior mesh whilst viewing from inside would be great... Its not something id want forced on people its just a personal thing that would add to the immersion of the game..

That i am apparently not alone in wanting.

[Edited on 5-13-2011 by Stilton]