Weapon ops crew member...

SeeJay · Post by **SeeJay** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:02 am

The hard part here is to make the mil frames a bit better in combat then any civ ship could be,
to make it attractive for combat, but still have the civ ships have their advantages in other areas.

I would never fly a mil frame if it isn't better than the civ frames in combat.

I would really love to have 1 civ and 1 mil ship for different purposes.

Nubarus · Post by **Nubarus** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:36 am

From post: 103502, Topic: tid=7269, author=Marvin wrote:
From post: 103488, Topic: tid=7269, author=Nubarus wrote:I would prefer a 2 seater over a computer though, that way you can save a 100/100 Weapon Ops crew member.
That being the case, there should be a sub-routine so that the WSO (back-seater) can never reach 100% ... assuming not all military flyers are top-notch ... and also assuming that, in the military, you don't get to pick who you fly with. In fact, the sub-routine should allow for the WSO to actually make things worse!

If a WSO makes things worse then still hardly anyone will fly a military frame, like it is now.
And why should only a civilian get to have a WSO at 100%?
You saying that once a soldier passed his/her basic training they stop learning and a civilian does not?

as things stand now a civil frame is better in combat on an overall level, this is just wrong in my book.

This is like a civilian build hummer performing better then the military one in a combat situation, I am pretty sure if that was the case the army brass would step up and ask what is going on here.

EDIT: Also, in this game a military pilot has to buy his own ship, gear, fuel and weapons, that is not normal too, so if I have to buy my own ship, gear, fuel and weapons from the navy with my own earned money I damn well decide who I fly with and who not.

[Edited on 3-9-2011 by Nubarus]

Post by **DaveK** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:21 am

The suggestion wasn't that a WSO would make things worse, just that they might - perhaps it would be better to suggest that they might not make things much better but slowly improve as they gain experience of more and more challenging sorties.

A pilot could only change their mil WSO by complaining to a superior officer or giving a poor report - the pilot has no actual authority over the WSO training or pay. As a civ pilot I can fire my WSO or pay to have him trained (or increase his wages so that he does get trained)

The idea that mil equipment has to be better in combat that non-mil isn't actually true; many of the UK forces buy their own equipment. There are weapons available around the world that are better than the ones used by the military. In the Evochron future, the ship is the only method of transport/money making available. There is a large number of manufacturers out there competing for business. The civ market is far bigger than the mil market. Some Mercs are very rich and can therefore afford the best, which the mil can't. Mil setups have to be fairly standard for efficient repair and maintanance and training. Result: if you have the money you can have the latest, absolutely top notch equipment that the mil can't afford or doesn't need because it has a different role. We merecnaries can afford the best plus the training needed to use it plus be picky about our crew.

The military do as they are told by politicians, with gear provided by the budget politicians decide.

However, all that doesn't stop Vice from putting an upper limit on Civ ships that is lower than military ships if that would make the games better and there is a demand. Since you can fly military combat missions in a civ frame (that you buy) or a mil frame (that you buy), I suppose that it doesn't make a lot of difference.

Given the freedom there is to design your ship, I think that it would be difficult to spec ships so that one wouldn't eventually be the top dog for most pilots.

Perhaps a way forward is to increase the performance or armour of equivalent military ships or to have some souped up weapons not available for Civ ships and accept that being able to have cargo bays for trade is the trade off you accept for a civ life

Given that some people claim to be able to take out capital ships quickly with a fairly basic set-up using guns and "normal" missiles only, perhaps the military targets could also be souped up so that the "classified" extra weaponry available to the military gives them a real advantage in some military contracts - civilian frames could succeed but it would be harder than in a military frame

Nubarus · Post by **Nubarus** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:24 am

As it stands now hardly anyone uses the military frames.

They already have dissadvantages regarding opperational use right now by being limited to the contracts that you can do compared to civil ships, and on top of it all they also take the short straw in combat.
This is the main reason barly anyone uses them.

Even if 1 equipment slot was added so that you can add all the essential military hardware and have 1 crew to boost your weapons and energy you still need to depend on support from a civil frame to deploy equipment handy during hard missions, this makes it more interesting to have 1 or 2 navy ships in a team.

Post by **Marvin** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:23 pm

Lots of information and ideas here.

MMaggio · Post by **MMaggio** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:23 pm

I know this thread is a requesr for a crewmemberm but I think if Mil ships could get free weapons from carriers only, that would make a major difference in players choosing them.
I suggest 1 crewmwmber and free weapons at carriers only.
Anybody agree ?

Nubarus · Post by **Nubarus** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:31 pm

Why free weapons, the weapons are not the problem at all.

The problem is that you cannot bring a full combat equipment set since you are 1 slot short.

I agree with the 1 crewmember, pretty much same deal as a civil one, maybe with 1 major difference to make it more military like.

Give the crewmember 100% loyalty since it is a naval opperative and not some pompous civilian douche but give it a starting skill level of 10 - 15 as to make it so that the crewmen is fresh out of bootcamp and that it's your job to train him/her and since the system is setup that way, pay his/her wages too.

Post by **DaveK** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:00 pm

How's about a few "military only" free weapons (including missiles) at carriers, so that the military actually does something for their pilots! (longer range OR faster firing particle weapons or a high capacity weapon recharge booster or longer range or faster or higher yield missiles - the miliatry has research facilities and they would obviously be working on classified weapons or even have access to Vonari tech to de-engineer, which civilian develops wouldn't)

What is a "full combat equipment set"?

Please remind me . . . if the StarMaster is so good, and we all use it why are we worried about using military frames at all. Their role becomes AI opponents (in hostile systems) and close up eye candy in furballs (they sure look aerodynamic and sleek, even though they spend their time in vacuum!)

However having the availability of one military frame that has definite combat advantages over the StarMaster with a combat load out would let combat-only pilots have a definite reason to use a military frame if they want (though the StarMaster still would be very good), would not disadvantage general mercs because they would have the cargobays and a competent civilian frame available and would allow rich mercs to own both and have the best of both worlds

[Edited on 9-3-2011 by DaveK]

Dave S · Post by **Dave S** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:57 pm

So there you have it, survey says "on the higher-end mil ships, it would be great if we could have 1 additional crew member and a total of 6 equipment slots".

Result: A wider variety of ships flying around and an even more dynamic MP experience

Translation for DaveK: A Ferrari with teeth!;):P:P:P

Brazilian Joe · Post by **Brazilian Joe** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:58 pm

While I have never progressed much in Renegade/Legends and am yet to purchase Mercenary, The way I envision it, military-grade tech should be head and shoulders above civilian tech. Military would also be less inclined to aesthetic tweaks, and more specialized. A fighter hull could be optimized to be a lethal fighter, and it should own civilian ships.

I think the hull could come with military-grade embedded, non-removable equipment in it. For example, it could come with an energy bonus - a fixed + x energy, or a multiplier on produced energy, or both.

Another possible improvement is an automated targeting computer helper. Essentially, the aforementioned 'crew member' without a salary or allegiance - he never deserts you, but can be damaged in combat.

I am also fond of the idea of military-grade equipment of all sorts - thrusters, weapons, subspace matter compressors for storage - which only fit in military ships, and perform better than civilian-class.

Enough hardpoints for it to be able to have a true edge against similar classed civilian ships - and a bit above - are also in order.

Post by **DaveK** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:59 pm

A Ferrari with teeth works for me

Post by **DaveK** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:14 pm

Brazillian Joe

If you get all the embedded bits you asked for you would have a "true edge" on a civilian ship anyway without hanging extra bits on!

If people get their souped up "Ferrari with Teeth", I predict that there will soon follow a thread from mercs harking back to the good ol' days and muttering about how good it would be if they didn't get their backside whupped by any and every military pilot around who have superior ships that can't be matched yada yada yada! Blame it on political - arms industry mutual back-scratching and pork-barrelling.

Still military ships couldn't trade and explore and perhaps limiting their fuel (and having refueling tanker ships gliding around just outside combat areas) would limit their sense of omnipotence and mirror most real dedicated fighters that trade speed and kill power for range! And before someone says it . . . the ones that "have it all" are also so expensive, even the USA can't issue one to every fighter jock!

:P

MMaggio · Post by **MMaggio** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:17 pm

However you read it, there isn't enough difference, separation, exclusivity, advantage, or any other reason to even bother with Mil ships.
If a player is to take on all those mil contracts and work his way up to a mil ship, there should be some remarkable advantage.
I understand the lack of cargo and tractor beam, etc. but Mil ships should have some unique advatage and be worth the extra effort to acquire one.

Post by **DaveK** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:40 pm

I think that we agree!

Military ships to have a definite weapons/speed/manouverability/armour/shield advantage. Civilian ships have cargo bays and bigger fuel capacity.

The trick will be to avoid swinging the pendulum too far against civilian ships so that we don't simply reverse the issue. I really fancy owning both and being able to swap around according what I fancy doing

I favour (mildly) vamped up ship technology plus some special military only weapons (freely available from carriers) plus a military combat computer helping with shield balancing/aiming/cm or a WSO (I like the idea of 100% loyalty and starting as a rookie, learning on the job at a rate proportional to the diffiuclty of the missions)

Nubarus · Post by **Nubarus** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:58 pm

In my list of a full combat gear are the following equipment items.

1) Hyperdrive (this actually gives me an idea, we could also have a Mantis installed default into a military frame and leave 5 slots as it is now)
2) Auto Repair Unit
3) Cannon Relay System
4) Cannon Heatsink
5) Shield Booster
6) Shield Recharger (Apparently many people hate the recharger for combat, personally I find the device pure genius since my style of combat is dodging a lot of incomming fire and allows me to constantly use -55 / 5W power settings. This allows me to pound the enemy pretty much none stop with cannon fire while I never have to worry about slow shield recharging if things get a little rough)

Another option is for instance to have a Shield Booster X5 or Auto Repair Unit C3 installed by default into a military frame if people feel a Mantis is too exculsive to have as default equipment, although fairly logical since the military would like to have all their pilots able to opperate at maximum range from the day they enter active service.

[Edited on 3-9-2011 by Nubarus]

Dave S · Post by **Dave S** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:27 pm

It seems many people have a different "favorite six" for their combat load equipment slots. It also seems that we all agree that six equipment slots is the magic minimum number to be effective in combat. The limit on equipment slots is probably the primary reason nobody uses mil frames.

If we could get the extra slot(s) added for mil frames, then any other additions (i.e. crew, mil-only weapons, etc) would only sweeten the deal and entice more players to fly mil ships.

Bottom line: Until players see more equipment slots for mil frames, it is going to continue to be a "Starmaster" universe. More equipment slots on mil ships please!:)

Nubarus · Post by **Nubarus** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:37 pm

I actually traded my Starmaster for a Mammoth 2 days ago since I didn't want to be just another Starmaster jockey.

Dave S · Post by **Dave S** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:49 pm

I've been trying out all of the mil ships in SP today just so I could talk to each of thier benefits and drawbacks.

Benefits: They are FAST!
Drawbacks: I get killed even FASTER!:P:P:D:D:D;)

Post by **DaveK** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:53 pm

Did I imagine it when I saw someone with a load out of more than 8 equipment slots in a civilian ship? I'm sure that it was a StarMaster.

Dave S · Post by **Dave S** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:01 pm

In their dreams. That would be cool though. Ah to dream!

Nubarus · Post by **Nubarus** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:26 pm

From post: 103536, Topic: tid=7269, author=DaveK wrote:Did I imagine it when I saw someone with a load out of more than 8 equipment slots in a civilian ship? I'm sure that it was a StarMaster.

Can't be done, max equipment slots are 8, same for missile slots, also 8 max.

Post by **DaveK** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:23 am

Spoiler

I've been thinking about the whole issue of which frames are used and why. Any of the civilian frames can be bought if you have the money and have moved far enough from Sapphire for them to become available. Military frames can only be bought if you also have the relevant rank

Each sort of pilot starts with the most basic frame (Talon and Ferret)

Does anyone ever buy any of the intermediate civilian frames on their way to owning a StarMaster or Legacy?

1: The spec of civilian frames seems to be one of an unrelenting trend of more armour/more space/less agility/less speed as you move through the ships available. Ultimately there is klittle point in not having the best and swapping out loads for the role you need at any time or keeping it multi-role

I bought a Raven as soon as I could afford it (mining) so that I could collect some equipment and feel that I wasn't still riding a scooter.

As soon as I found the weapons crates I collected cash and as soon as I had enough cash to start trading in higher tech stuff in Pearl I did that. I used the "jump and run" technique to shuttle on the trading route to avoid hostiles (don't sit still!) upgrading shields canon etc for the occassional time I was "jumped" by hostiles until I had enough money to buy a StarMaster and could start exploring. (at my age reflexes aren't good enough to race never mind furball!)

Does anyone actually use any of the 15 or so intermediate civilian frames, other than just having them en route to the StarMaster?

2: The spec of military ships actually peak on agility and speed with the Evochs (half way down the list) and peak on assembly points 2/3 of the way through the list (Avenger). Hard points max at the start and armour relentlessly increases. Equipment slots and CM's are fixed

Even with the additions requested in this thread there would seem to be two military ships that would take on the StarMaster role so that military pilots could fly military frames: Evoch-E for (speed and agility) intercept fighter role and a Chimera for heavy duty stand there and slug it out role.

So, out of 32 available frames at present we have one being used as soon as pilots can afford it (StarMaster), but with the changes mentioned in this thread there would be three used (add Evoch-E and Chimera)

Could we do better than that if we want more ships to be flying around out there? Civilian contracts that require great speed and manouverability to get in and out of tight or dangerous spaces as quickly as possible? Or that would need a "fighter" escort. Vamp up capital ship and Vonari defences so that only a heavily armoured ship can stay around long enough to deliver the deathblow - sleek fighters would be there to defend it from the defence fighters of the capital ship support group carriers. Multi play would then have the need for mixed fleets for contracts.

Some would specialise and some would have a hanger full of gear for different roles!

Another thought - what do the AI fly? Is the hostile stuff we see related to what we are flying? or is it just the top end anyway?

Edit: I've just noticed that my "posts" appears be stuck at 201 and have been for a long time! I certainly haven't started 201 new posts so what is it measuring?

[Edited on 10-3-2011 by DaveK]

Nubarus · Post by **Nubarus** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:14 am

I have flown all the military frames and the Chimera is not hot on my list to be honest, it's a sluggish hulk that is even less agile then a Starmaster build as a fighter.
It even has less armor then a Starmaster.........

I have actually flown many of the civil frames when I was doing the IMG, I really liked the Raven, the Mirage and the Legacy.
And right now I really enjoying flying the Mammoth, that little bit more agility is a nice edge in combat.

As for the military frames, each time I gained rank I upgraded to the next frame, so I have flown em all.
My personal favorates where the Lampray, Firestar and the Avenger.

If I could fly any of these ships with a Weapon Ops in the back seat and 1 extra equipment slot I don't even have to think twice.

Dave S · Post by **Dave S** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:17 pm

Below are the 5 different roles I seem to try and fill. What would add new dimension to the game is if there could be more frame specialization built into the game to fit these roles. Everyone would then have a hanger of differnt ships they use regularly as they play. You would see a huge variety of frames then being utilized out there.

- Heavy Combat (This is where an updated Chimera would be cool with more equipment and a crew)

- Light/Fast Fighter (An Evoch-E with that additional equipment slot and a weapons officer would be cool)

- Cargo Hauler for making $$ (It would be awesome if one civ frame, like the Mammoth could hold more than 5 cargo, then people would gravitate to it)

- Exploration (have a civ frame that is specialized to fil this role in some way)

- "Swiss Army Ship" (I can modify it quickly in any shipyard to adaquetly fill most roles). That's where the Starmaster is already really great.

Nubarus · Post by **Nubarus** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:30 pm

Only thing is, swapping frames that can hold less crew then you have or no crew at all makes swapping a little anoying.

When you park 1 ship with a crew you loose your crew, so when you pick it up again you have to find and train a new crew.

Hence why my original idea was to add crew seats to military frames so you can swap ships and keep your crew.

Another option could be sending your crew on a payed vacation when you swap frames.
Key word here is payed btw.

[Edited on 3-10-2011 by Nubarus]