Just how fast can I go? - Experiments in Engine Performance

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DaveK
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Just how fast can I go? - Experiments in Engine Performance

Post by DaveK »

How do normal ship engines perform in extreme circumstances?

I received this report from DeepSpaceTwo, now safely back at DSRS Copernicus. Since he can no longer explore deep space he has turned his attention to technology performance!

"It is common knowledge that the class of an engine does not determine a ship's acceleration, only its top speed. Afterburners increase both acceleration and top speed - hence their usefulness in combat. Military engines have a higher acceleration than civilian engines.

As a scientist I was intrigued with an assumption by an experienced pilot that if you set your ship into Inertial Flight Mode and use your afterburner you will accelerate to 9999 or until you run out of fuel. It got me thinking. I was fairly sure from experience that the rate of acceleration decreased as speed increased. I had assumed therefore that there would be a maximum speed that a ship could achieve and that it would not necessarily be the 9999 limit on a ships velocity indicator. Obviously you might run out of fuel before you hit top speed.

I decided to find out what was happening.

I chose measure the performance of several different classes of civilian and military ship, choosing a top and bottom class frame from each;

• A fully stripped out Talon with a 2800 capacity fuel tank
• A lightly equipped Ferret with its maximum 400 capacity fuel tank
• A Leviathan with a 2000 capacity fuel tank
• A Chimera with a 2000 capacity fuel tank

I'll give detailed data for the Leviathan - the other three ships behaved in the same way.

The Graph 1 shows how speed increases with burn time. The steepness of the curve is a measure of the rate of acceleration - the steeper the curve the faster you are acceleration. From a standing start, using afterburner in Inertial Flight Mode, the initial acceleration up to 5000 is very good, but acceleration starts to fall off after that; the conclusion is that there is little point trying to accelerate beyond 5000 using the afterburner. The change in speed is not straight line - it is a curve that gets flatter and flatter - a power law. It also gets close and closer to a final value - the maximum speed you can go. A graph that levels off slowly, approaching a final value is known as an asymptotic graph!

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Although the fuel ran out before the top speed was reached I used the trend in change of acceleration to calculate (extrapolate) that the maximum speed achievable would be just under 7900.

The second graph shows the time it takes to increase your speed by 10 at different starting speeds. It shows that the time taken increases at an increasing rate; This is another way of showing that the changes are not straight line but are a power law. For example it takes 19 seconds to go from 7500 to 7510, but 91 seconds to go from 7800 to 7810 and a whopping 165 seconds to go from 7875 to 7885. Since fuel is burned at a constant rate this also means that every increase of 10 in speed takes more fuel as you go faster.

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The third graph shows how speed is related to the amount of fuel used.

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To accelerate from standing start to 6000 takes 50 units of fuel - equivalent to an average of speed increase of 120 per unit of fuel

50 units of fuel will also accelerate you from
• 6000 to 6700 (an average increase of 16 in speed per unit of fuel)
• 6700 to 6940 (an average increase of 5 in speed per unit of fuel)
• 7312 to 7377 (an average increase of 1 in speed per unit of fuel)

The trend continues until we can see that 100 units of fuel will accelerate you from 7874 to 7882 - equivalent to an 12.5 units of fuel for an increase in speed of 1!

All four ships have a maximum attainable speed of between 7800 and 7900


EDIT: What happens when I slow down?

Deceleration also uses your engines.

Graph 4 show a full acceleration / deceleration cycle in a Chimera:

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It took 300 seconds to accelerate to 7120 and 415 seconds to slow down again, since the afterburner wasn't used in the slowing phase. The curves are symmetrical - the faster you are travelling the slower velocity changes occur under a constant thrust.

To slow down quickly and hence conserve fuel, just do a jump! (Thanks TJJ). If you are short of fuel this could be into a station if you can see it on the NavMap or know the coodinates or it could be just near to where you are.

Bingo fuel is equal to (class of Fulcrum Drive +10) - the extra 10 units of fuel allows for slowing down after the jump plus a bit to manoeuvre into the station you build or deploy!!

:)

TJJ's comment about the effect of a star's gravity is a whole different ballgame. If you close the throttle, your speed indicator stays at zero, but you are drawn towards the star. I accelerated from 1425 to 2500 in around 90 seconds and then exploded. This was from an approach starting 25K from the star

If you cruise past a star at 2500 there is no measurable deviation on the direction of your flight - the effect is obviously subtle. Gravity slingshotting doesn't look like it's a goer unless Vice scales up the size of star's n the EM extension like he is scaling up the size of planets! :P

Mapping the gravity field around a star and measuring its effect on a ship will need a new set of experiments. Tempting! :D


[Edited on 30-1-2012 by DaveK]
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Just how fast can I go? - Experiments in Engine Performance

Post by Viper »

Another piece of awesomeness from your hands Dave, absolutely stunning job once again. Added it to the nooby info thread.
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Just how fast can I go? - Experiments in Engine Performance

Post by Maarschalk »

Very cool DaveK, yes I tested it out on my Evoch-E with a 1200 units Fuel tank and I confrimed that I could only reach around 7600 +- in speed...........;):P:cool:
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Post by Dingo »

Dave, you experiments are both awesome, and nuts. I like it :D
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Post by DaveK »

Thanks guys! Thanks for the confirmation test Maars - all science has to be tested by independent observers before it can be accepted! :D

Can't wait for the weapons mod system - I'll have a field day! :P:P:P:P
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Post by Marvin »

:cool: Visual aids. I love 'em. Especially graphs. ;)
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Post by TJJ »

What about in the gravity field from a star?
Is acceleration from gravity constrained by the same universal breaking force, or can you break the 7900 barrier by reaching terminal velocity at the same time as approaching a star?

Oh and surely 'Bingo fuel' is whatever you need to jump to the nearest refueling station? :)
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Post by DaveK »

From post: 127415, Topic: tid=8677, author=TJJ wrote:What about in the gravity field from a star?
Is acceleration from gravity constrained by the same universal breaking force, or can you break the 7900 barrier by reaching terminal velocity at the same time as approaching a star?

Oh and surely 'Bingo fuel' is whatever you need to jump to the nearest refueling station? :)
when poodling along at 7000+ I found that I left occupied space fairly quickly, even with the nav map zoomed out so there was no station to lock onto. But you are right - I'll aim for another occupied part of Sapphire and and see if I can jump into a station at that speed as I whizz past ;) But if you aren't on route for a station the bingo fuel suggestion stands I think.

wrt stars I don't think that you will stay in their vicinity long enough to be an issue, but I'll test it - I've found that by the time their gravity has an appreciable affect ithe star also tends to destroy you. One problem with star testing is that it takes so long to get to a high speed and when you turn you lose a lot of it - I have to use rubber bands to hold the afterburner button in because my thumb was cramping up! :P
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Post by Bossk »

Great work DaveK. I have got to ask though: Got to much time on your hands? :P

Something to add to the "you know you've been playing too much" thread....

When my in game experiments put the stuff done by the LHC to shame!

;)
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Post by DaveK »

From post: 127472, Topic: tid=8677, author=Bossk wrote:Great work DaveK. I have got to ask though: Got to much time on your hands? :P

Something to add to the "you know you've been playing too much" thread....

When my in game experiments put the stuff done by the LHC to shame!

;)
A scientist by training and profession and love of science and fascination about how things work or might work- now fully retired; so as well as all the other things I do, I am lucky enough to have a bit (well actually quite a lot) of free time for problem solving and having a bit of fun. :D

I'm useless at pVp and getting practice isn't easy without boring the pants of my opponents. I love the immersion and freedom of the game. SeeJay is an ace at "finding new systems" exploration. I really enjoyed the "find the edge" exploration but it became pointless when Maars revealed his magic "go anywhere free" crystals and Vice pointed out that I was "breaking" the clan stats :o

The attractive thing is that Vice wrote the game to be fun to play. I enjoy the challenge of trying to explain how it all might work without the "reversing the polarity of the furgle tube activator" level of gobbledegook. :)

And despite what people say, it's only a co-oincidence that my wife says that I should get out more! :P
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Post by DaveK »

From post: 127415, Topic: tid=8677, author=TJJ wrote:What about in the gravity field from a star?
Is acceleration from gravity constrained by the same universal breaking force, or can you break the 7900 barrier by reaching terminal velocity at the same time as approaching a star?

Oh and surely 'Bingo fuel' is whatever you need to jump to the nearest refueling station? :)
My thanks! I only tacked the deceleration on at the end because I had a tiiny bit of data and did a lot of extrapolating of it - always a dodgy thing to do! :(

I've now got deceleration data and the pattern is obvious - how wrong could I be?

Jumping to stop is also obvious - at least once someone points it out, but duh - missing the obvious is something I do a lot :D

Bingo fuel to reach a full stop becomes the (class of you jump drive + 10) or you will not have enough fuel to jump and then stop. The +10 allows for slowing to a stop plus a few units of fuel to manouvre into the station you deploy :D

The effect of stars is a whole different ballgame; the speed indicator registers zero at all times, but the nav point distance is reducing - hence speed needs to be calculated by timimg how long it takes to travel say 1K. You do accelerate but I blew up in the star before I'd doubled my speed form a starting speed of 1400

I'll edit the original report as soon as I've finished my proper life activities this morning (visiting a national garden, lunch with friends, household chores etc) - you reading this Bossk? :P
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Post by Bossk »

Yes I am. So, normal life? How is that working out for you? :D Whilts doing your chores, can figure out how long it take for you to move from 1 room to the other at full walking speed, allowing for resistance of carpet/stuff on floor/dog running at your feet etc, so you can ensure you have the cold beer out of the fridge and you are sat down again in time for Countdown. :D Always miss the start of Countdown. DuhDum, DuhDum, DaDaDaDum, Bong!

BTW, the the National Garden, are you talking about the NMA in Staffordshire? Amazing place.
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Post by DaveK »

ROFL - I didn't realise lizards had such a sense of humour! :P :P

Actually we have polished wooden floors downstairs so some travel is quicker than others :D No dogs, just a horse (her's) and it isn't allowed in the house (but then again half the time I'm not either)

Nope, the garden is RHS harlow Carr in Harrogate (only 10 miles from here) - are you based in the UK?

With UK weather, the beer goes from the garage to the fridge to warm it up a bit :P - not really a TV watcher (too busy researching EM technology and trying to recreate it in the kitchen - got a half build Mantis Drive down there - made from bogroll tubes and sticky back plastic - my ship will have a Blue Peter emblem on as it's decal! :P
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Post by Bossk »

Yes, I am in the UK. Sunny(!) south coast. I made a Starship Enterprise out of bog roll and paper plates when I was a kid. We should get together. Between us we could conquer the world!!!

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Post by DaveK »

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Post by DaveK »

The new deceleration experiments have been added to the first post! :P
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Post by FinFoxx »

From post: 127604, Topic: tid=8677, author=DaveK wrote:The new deceleration experiments have been added to the first post! :P
Lol davek i found these experiments amusing, also fun! had to test by myself too :P:P
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Post by TJJ »

How about.....

- Build a station within the gravity field of a star.
- jar yourself against the station, facing toward the star.
- accelerate (obviously with tractor+fuel converter for infinite fuel)

As an additional part to the experiment; detonate the station and see how long it takes for you to hit the star. =)
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Post by TJJ »

You could also try having someone shoot you with a kinetic cannon; they effect your velocity right?
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Post by FinFoxx »

From post: 127610, Topic: tid=8677, author=TJJ wrote:How about.....

- Build a station within the gravity field of a star.
- jar yourself against the station, facing toward the star.
- accelerate (obviously with tractor+fuel converter for infinite fuel)

As an additional part to the experiment; detonate the station and see how long it takes for you to hit the star. =)
rofl :D:D sounds tricky lol
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Post by tsuki »

DaveK, could you please provide the numerical data (excel spreadsheet for example)?
It could be useful for my calculations.
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Post by Maarschalk »

From post: 127612, Topic: tid=8677, author=TJJ wrote:You could also try having someone shoot you with a kinetic cannon; they effect your velocity right?
Eigth Kinetic missiles down your tail pipe would be better for this!

;):P:P:P:P:P:P:P
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Post by Flying Brick »

This is great stuff, thank you DaveK!
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Post by Letoras »

Wow!!! This is fantastic thread!!!! Well done to the author!!!
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Post by -splosives- »

Looks like this thread needs some editing, as we recently found out engine class and frame class does matter for acceleration. The faster you go, the more it matters.

Also, I know a method of going way beyond 10k speed. The fastest speed I went I believe was 15k.
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