Ship building

Rui · Post by **Rui** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:58 am

Heya guys

I have a question about putting together a ship. I understand, due to the flight mechanics of the game that top speed isnt particularly important, and when u can scale IDS it becomes even less so.

However acceleration in this game seems to be rather important. My question is the wing systems that you can upgrade for your fighter, the description says it makes the fighter more agile, but I was wondering what it actually does?

Does it improve acceleration or just decrease your turning circle.

Do engines improve acceleration? or just top speed?

And lastly, the shields, I notice you can get shield batteries for your ship, as well as fitting leveled shields when building the ship. I was wondering what the difference between the two were. One im guessing affects total amount of dmg absorbed and the other affects recharge rate, but which does which?

Cheers for your help guys

Rui

SeeJay · Post by **SeeJay** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:36 am

Hi and welcome Rui.

Here are the different components and what they do:
http://evochron.junholt.se/objectdescri ... object.htm

The wings makes your ship more agile (turns faster). Some even have thrusters on them.

Acceleration is important, but with a high IDS and use of afterburner is enough for me, even
with a lower class engine. Agility is more important in my opinion.

"Shield boosters are the power storage part of the shield system. They are a series of capacitors that store energy for each shield array. A single shield booster cell provides basic storage capacity for the shield system."

"The shield array recharger works as an energy transfer system and provides additional shield energy to arrays that become critical by routing power from the main energy system to the shield system. For additional defensive capabilities, particularly for heavy transport ships with fewer offensive options, this can be a very effective device. "

Hope this helps a bit.

See ya out there!;)

Avenger · Post by **Avenger** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:55 pm

Better wings also make you roll faster, and I find that also really important since I use roll a lot to guide my cannon fire to the target at long range and to isolate 1 ship from the rest of the mob so I don't get shot at by more then 1 to 3 ships instead of all of em.

You are correct about acceleration being very important since "hanging" in 1 spot for too long when you make a 180 degree turn can get you killed really fast, and yes, a better engine class makes you accelerate faster.

The shield array just adds 100 units of shielding per class, so a class 10 shield array provides 1000 units of shielding.
The shield boosters add an additional 50 units per class so a class 10 shield array + a X5 shield booster give you 1250 units of shielding.
I assume that it's simple numbers on the effect that you have to chew away the 1250 units away with the damage values of the various weapons in EM 1 on 1. (Get hit with a Fusion laser takes off 75 units of shielding)

Rui · Post by **Rui** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:43 pm

Cheers guys, useful info. Its helped me out with picking the appropriate upgrades for my ship, before I hop in a mammoth that is

Rui · Post by **Rui** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:14 pm

Ok got some more questions now

So ive been doing the IMG quest. Some tricky moments, especially the spy mission. So I got to the sierra warzone and completed all the missions there. They were def the most fun. The Vonari seem a little tougher than the other ships ive been fighting up to this point.

Anyway so I docked with a carrier and saw that I could get military frames, but they seem rather limited. All have size 10 shields and engines, so while they seem like they will be quick and generally take a pounding as they have decent armour, I see no reason why I cant outfit one of the later civvie ships like the mammoth to have similarish specs. Or are there some blatent advantages that im missing here? I havent tried buying one yet due to the price...

SeeJay · Post by **SeeJay** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:22 pm

Hi Rui.

You can as you say fit a mammoth for combat with crew and high class wings etc.
But you will never reach the standards of a MIL ship in combat situations.
Better armor and more efficient use of weapons/energy with the onboard computer.

I normally fly the MIL frame Avenger for combat, rescue, exploring...
I only use a CIV frame for trading since it has more cargo bays.

Try a MIL one and judge for yourself. They are a lot of fun in combat.

[Edited on 2011-4-14 by SeeJay]

Post by **Marvin** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:31 pm

Also, keep in mind that, unless something has changed, you can't finish the IMG quest in a military ship.

Rui · Post by **Rui** » Sat Apr 16, 2011 4:27 pm

Thanks guys, ive decided to stick with the civvie frames untill Ive finished the IMG quest.

One thing I found when I arrived in pearl was that because my repuation was hostile, while trying to do the IMG quest which is to attack rebel ships, I was also getting attacked by Navy ships which would jump in. Including carriers, destroyers you name it. So I figured the best bet was to improve my reputation in Pearl and then try again.

Now ive been monitoring in the news console while docked my reputation with the Navy, Energy, Miners, Guild and Rebels while doing Navy contracts. Ive got my rep in the 70s for both Energy and Navy, 40s and 50s for the rebels and guild, and 39 for the miners, but im still considered hostile and the majority of Navy ships that I seem to bump into are still hostile towards me. Am I missing something or do I need to just keep doing missions?

Post by **Marvin** » Sat Apr 16, 2011 6:22 pm

There are four levels of overall reputation ... even though you get the faction reps down a bit, your overall rep is what determines how many (if any) Navy ships show as red. Also keep in mind that you can only make real changes to your system (overall) reputation in single-player. But, in multiplayer, you can get help from other players to cover your six or take out some of the bad guys.

Rui · Post by **Rui** » Sat Apr 16, 2011 8:44 pm

Ok, thanks for the clarification on those.

So how does one go about improving the overall system reputation whilst in single player? Does it increase over time? Or does it increase when the reputation with the miners navy and energy go over a certain value?

Ophiuchus · Post by **Ophiuchus** » Sat Apr 16, 2011 9:16 pm

In SP-mode, rep levels of 100% for Energy, Miners, and Navy is required to achieve a "phase" change, say from Fair to Good. Likewise for the downshift from Hostile to Moderate, and etc. You have to do the work of completing contracts, in order to shift your reputation upwards. It does take a time/effort investment in a particular system to do this. No easy fix here. So, yes, overall system rep does increase over time. btw, welcome aboard !

Rui · Post by **Rui** » Sun Apr 17, 2011 12:38 am

Fantastic guys, thanks for all the help. Just finished the IMG quest, Im gonna finish improving my system rep in Pearl and then head to a warzone and probably join in on MP.

Serisno · Post by **Serisno** » Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:15 am

I'm going to tag my question onto this thread since it seems like the relevant place.

I was reading all the information about the ship parts here and I agreed with Avenger's sentiment, "You are correct about acceleration being very important since "hanging" in 1 spot for too long when you make a 180 degree turn can get you killed really fast, and yes, a better engine class makes you accelerate faster."

I spend most of my combat time with ids off. I climb to a speed of 2500 using the 'inertial forward' and 'inertial reverse' controls. Then kind of joust with the bad guys doing drive bys. The most dangerous part of this is when I fly past the enemies, then have to stop/turnaround and build speed towards them again.

I was looking to decrease my vulnerability window by buying a better engine but....

I don't think that the engine is increasing my acceleration at all.

--I tested the engines--
--using a Saber frame and all other devices set to their lowest option (class 1)--

*With an Engine Class 1
*If traveling at a speed of -2000, I hit my 'intertial forward' key and hold it. Exactly 16 seconds later I am at a speed of +2000.

*With an Engine Class 10
*If traveling at a speed of -2000, I hit my 'intertial forward' key and hold it. Exactly 16 seconds later I am at a speed of +2000.

~~I would expect that a larger engine that is providing better acceleration would get me from -2000 to +2000 faster.

Am I doing something wrong here? I'd like to find a way to increase my acceleration.

49rTbird · Post by **49rTbird** » Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:30 am

Hello Serisno, I have not done any acceleration tests so not sure, but you are right the bigger engine should get U there faster. I do know that the bigger engines produce a higher top end. Welcome to the forum and the Sim. Have fun and hope to see you out there sometime.

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Sun Apr 17, 2011 1:00 pm

Hi Serisno, welcome to the game and forum. Hope to see yopu out there some time....

I think in Space accelaration is a constant if the mass of the bigger engine increases proportionaly to negate the increase of accelaration "F=ma" Say: Force of engine Class 1= 1000, mass= 200, acceleration is then 5. Now Say: Force of Engine class 10= 2000, mass= 400, and acceleration is still 5.......

Rui · Post by **Rui** » Sun Apr 17, 2011 1:33 pm

Serisno has a good point so I went to check it out and did some measurements

This is what I found:

I used the IDS multiplier x5 just to give me an overall view first. And measured the time it took to accel from 0-1000 across 3 different engines. I picked the extremes, the mk1, mk5, and mk10 engines.

All engines on maximum IDS multiplier would go over 1000 (in a legacy)
All engines took the same amount of time to reach 1000 - 5 secs [give or take a tenth]

So there is no acceleration difference between the engines.

I found that quite suprising. I then decided to check to see if there was any difference between the different IDS modes and if the boost given by AB changes with engines too.

IDS multiplier appears to be exactly that, a multiplier. It doesnt change the accel of an engine at all. So the time taken to reach 500 on IDSx3 is the same as on IDSx5. It only increases your top speed, not how quickly you get there.

I also found that the ships accelerate linearly (which makes sense). The only exception is just before you reach your set speed where theres a slow down. I didnt do any measurements cos it was too short a period of time, but it appears rather negligable.

Lastly AB. Whether you have a size 1 engine or a size 10, the acceleration produced by the AB is the same you'll always reach 1000 in roughly 3 secs. Tho I didnt check if having a larger engine allows you to achieve a greater top speed with AB.

So engines in the grand scheme of things make rather little difference to ship configs aside from top speed only. You "hang" just as much with a size 1 as you do with a size 10. A size 1 on IDS multiplier 5 on my Legacy will reach 1741, which is a good max combat speed. It will also AB just as quickly as a size 10 too. The only difference is that my maximum non-AB speed is lower, which is not that important for combat because as soon as you need to run away, you're going to be pressing that AB button

Maybe at a later date different accelerations for different engines can be added? I think that would make a huge difference to potential loadouts. Maybe as a function of mass aswell? To make it proper F=ma? Although that would involve giving all equipment (or at least the ships) mass values so you could calculate a total. As well as doing lots of coding stuff that I know absolutely nothing about lol.

Anyway its good to know. Means ill be taking the size 5 engine out of my Legacy throwing in a size 1 and picking a better wing

Rui · Post by **Rui** » Sun Apr 17, 2011 1:37 pm

Yeah Maars you're right, but it would have to be the mass of the whole ship, not just the engine that doubles.

Serisno · Post by **Serisno** » Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:18 pm

So engines are looking like their only purpose is to increase the IDS main speed.

:/

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Sun Apr 17, 2011 6:38 pm

From post: 105913, Topic: tid=7498, author=Rui wrote:Yeah Maars you're right, but it would have to be the mass of the whole ship, not just the engine that doubles.

I was just using Serino's example where the only thing he was changing was the engine class....so the mass of the ship was not changing only the mass of the engine...

Serisno · Post by **Serisno** » Sun Apr 17, 2011 10:29 pm

From post: 105923, Topic: tid=7498, author=Maarschalk wrote:
From post: 105913, Topic: tid=7498, author=Rui wrote:Yeah Maars you're right, but it would have to be the mass of the whole ship, not just the engine that doubles.
I was just using Serino's example where the only thing he was changing was the engine class....so the mass of the ship was not changing only the mass of the engine...

Even if you just modify the mass of the engine, and keep the mass of the ship the same. Your acceleration should get better.

If you want to get technical and bust out the math on this, then you'd need to modify your previous calculations a little.

If an engine outputs F force, the engine has mass M, and the rest of the ship and components have mass MM. We can calculate the acceleration of the ship.

Where M+MM equals the mass of the engine plus the mass of the rest of the ship and components.
F=(M+MM)A so A1=(M+MM)/F

If we add a bigger engine... double the mass of the engines to 2M, and we double the force produced to 2F, while keeping the mass of the remainder of the ship to MM we get a new rate of acceleration... A2= (2M + MM)/2F

The question is, what is the difference in acceleration?
A1 = A2
(M+MM)/F = (2M + MM)/2F
M + MM = (2M + MM) / 2
M + MM = M + (MM/2)

By this we can see that adding an extra engine is equivalent to reducing the rest of the ship's mass and all additional component's mass and cargo mass all by 1/2.

If your previous statement was true... why would anything ever have more than one engine on it?

*There is one caveat to my statement. If the mass of the ship and all its components is extremely small as compared to the mass of the engine... Then I suppose it would be true that adding another engine wouldn't matter. Since 1000000 + 2 is pretty much the same as 1000000 + 1.

[Edited on 4-17-2011 by Serisno]

Rui · Post by **Rui** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:40 am

I thought about the idea of the mass of the craft being much smaller than the engine too, but its hard to justify when thinking about the design.

The best way to justify the current system would be if the engines were in fact gravitational field generators which are rated up to different top speeds. Then mass would be inconsequential and you could easily get v smooth linear acceleration across the board up to a maximum top speed. Unfortunately, engine trails and sounds etc kinda discount that

Serisno, did you have to use M and MM

Serisno · Post by **Serisno** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:17 pm

Hah, I was regretting that immediately after I submitted it.

Funny that you mentioned it. I guess I'm not the only one who's anal about variable naming.

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 8:53 pm

From post: 105934, Topic: tid=7498, author=Serisno wrote:
From post: 105923, Topic: tid=7498, author=Maarschalk wrote:
From post: 105913, Topic: tid=7498, author=Rui wrote:Yeah Maars you're right, but it would have to be the mass of the whole ship, not just the engine that doubles.
I was just using Serino's example where the only thing he was changing was the engine class....so the mass of the ship was not changing only the mass of the engine...
Even if you just modify the mass of the engine, and keep the mass of the ship the same. Your acceleration should get better.

If you want to get technical and bust out the math on this, then you'd need to modify your previous calculations a little.

If an engine outputs F force, the engine has mass M, and the rest of the ship and components have mass MM. We can calculate the acceleration of the ship.

Where M+MM equals the mass of the engine plus the mass of the rest of the ship and components.
F=(M+MM)A so A1=(M+MM)/F

If we add a bigger engine... double the mass of the engines to 2M, and we double the force produced to 2F, while keeping the mass of the remainder of the ship to MM we get a new rate of acceleration... A2= (2M + MM)/2F

The question is, what is the difference in acceleration?
A1 = A2
(M+MM)/F = (2M + MM)/2F
M + MM = (2M + MM) / 2
M + MM = M + (MM/2)

By this we can see that adding an extra engine is equivalent to reducing the rest of the ship's mass and all additional component's mass and cargo mass all by 1/2.

If your previous statement was true... why would anything ever have more than one engine on it?

*There is one caveat to my statement. If the mass of the ship and all its components is extremely small as compared to the mass of the engine... Then I suppose it would be true that adding another engine wouldn't matter. Since 1000000 + 2 is pretty much the same as 1000000 + 1.

[Edited on 4-17-2011 by Serisno]

Your callculations are absolutely correct, but since we do not know the exact mass of class 1 versus class 10 engine and the acceleration measured by Serino was about the same with both engines, so I tried to keep the equation and math simple and was just using an example with the thought of the possible and/or negligable effect of the mass of the ship in mind just to show that the acceleration does not necesarrely change with a higher class engine without going into more details.....

Meaning the Total Mass of class 1 engine + ship = 200
and the Total Mass of class 10 engine + ship = 400

And the other negligable effect being the caveat you mentioned.....

[Edited on 4-18-2011 by Maarschalk]

Serisno · Post by **Serisno** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:10 pm

Alright, well I think we have an answer here at least. For whatever the calculations/justifications end up being. The acceleration of the ships is not modified by different engine classes.

This is just one small corner of a large new verse for me to explore, so I'm off to poke into another dark corner until I figure out whats hiding there.

Maarschalk, I noticed your mood there... would you by chance happen to live in Philadelphia?

On a side note: I will never admit to being a part of this conversation. A discussion on the theoretical difference of acceleration of ships with unknown masses being propelled through space by different engine's with varying mass and force output.... Its almost, almost, as bad as the Star Trek nerds who argue all day during lunch in the cube next to me trying to justify Star Trek physics.

Post by **DaveK** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:53 pm

This is well worth knowing - I've maxed out the construction level of my StarMaster but want to add some extras (like a bigger fuel tank for exploring btetween known systems without having to deplot fuel and shield generators so often) but naively thought that I needed the extra acceleration of a bigger engine (to balance the extra mass of a bigger frame) more than the extra fuel capacity.

It would seem that with the IDS multiplier that I don't use at more than 3x, I can reduce the engine size, increase the multiplier and keep the same max speed but free up some points for a bigger fuel tank and perhaps nippier wings!!

:):):):):)

Hostiles - eat dust!!

:P:P