abstract discussion..........

[verbosity]

Feel free to us this thread to continue any discussions on the nature of the universe, God Vs. the machina, or whether the Ducks will beat the dolphins ( contact me for good odds )

[ryuu]

what kind of odds? dolphins are limited to the land and see, ducks can fly and they have more effective projectiles, so they will clearly win

oh and every posibility exists in an alterante universe

[verbosity]

Any odds you like, whichever one wins they'll come after us next. PS.the dolphins have exosuits like in Aliens ( thats where James cameron got the idea of ripleys suit from )



just as an aside,

If a robot was sent into the past to create its parent robot, you'd instantly have a paradox. In fact anything with non-zero mass sent backwards in time would create such a paradox. So the robot could, but would only actually exist in the paradox, and the rest of the universe would continue without self-inventing robots..

In Science there is the concept of the anthropic theory which states that the universe exists as it is since its the only way that it could be set up to allow observers ( IE US ) to occur. This is generally ignored since it doesn't actually tell us anything. but It is my belief that there must be some 'source' consciousness, since there are too many universal values that are simply 'just right' simply too many values that sit in the perfect position to allow a crazily complex and fragile existence such as ours to come into being in order to ask these question.

Sure it could be random chance but what are the odds?

[Edited on 6-30-2010 by verbosity]

[ryuu]

well if you look at the multiple worlds theory, 100%, because in the multiple worlds theoury, everything everywhere has happened, and everything everywere will happen and theres still time for tea

[verbosity]

Originally posted by ryuu
well if you look at the multiple worlds theory, 100%, because in the multiple worlds theoury, everything everywhere has happened, and everything everywere will happen and theres still time for tea

I'm a fan of the multiple worlds theory myself, in fact I use it as a basis for argument quite often:
"In an infinite universe, anything that is possible must be true"

That does not disprove god ( personally I hate the term 'god' but I use it here for the sake of a common understanding ). As far as I understand it, Every reality still conforms to a basic set of fundamental rules, the values may change ( the speed of light, strength of the cosmological constant, how I played the winning hand of poker last week ETC) but still have a common framework IE that which is 'possible'

I have another argument that I could in this regard about consciousness but it would take far to long to type out but results in " I think therefore GOD is " even in multiple worlds theory.

[ryuu]

ah, but you proved the existance of god yourself, "In an infinite universe, anything that is possible must be true" if you just add that anything is possible, because it is, you have proof, based on the multiple worlds theory

[Maarschalk]

Even in the Multiple Worlds Theory there are Universal laws that apply. If all was just randomness and chance then Universal laws would not be able to be applied no matter how many multiple worlds exists. And even a theory has to abide by laws to be defined as a theory. No use discussing anything or doing anything and nothing would be possible or make sence if all was just randomness and chance.

[verbosity]

Originally posted by ryuu
ah, but you proved the existance of god yourself, "In an infinite universe, anything that is possible must be true" if you just add that anything is possible, because it is, you have proof, based on the multiple worlds theory

~Yes
If I were to play Devils advocate " Is GOD possible?"
not everything is possible, for instance in no reality is it possible to observe what is beyond the event horizon, in no reality is it possible to observe what could be considered 'outside' of the reality ETC ...

[ryuu]

no, because the multiple universe theory defines a multiuniverse, and within that multverse there are many universe with diferent universal rules, gravity is not the same in every universe

[verbosity]

Originally posted by ryuu
gravity is not the same in every universe

no its not, but thats a change in value, there would still be gravity in every instance ( even if it was a value of 0 ) but for instance:
1+1=2
Pythagoras theorem
the laws of thermodynamics and equations of motion
etc

The values within the universes may change, but there are some things that would not. you Will not find a universe with 0,1 or 2 Dimensions. Thus there are things that can be conceived of that are 'Impossible'

[ryuu]

prove that there would not be a universe with only one dimenson, or more than four

[Maarschalk]

That is true, that each Universe/World would have its own Universal laws but they would still be governed by those laws and thus randomness and chance is only relative in our limited perception of very complex events that we call random and chance because it appears relatively to us that way.....

One of the Manifestions of the Creator tells us that the Worlds of God are many and each has its own creatures, so for me Religion does not exclude the theory of multiple Universes/Worlds and existence of Aliens.........

[verbosity]

Originally posted by ryuu
prove that there would not be a universe with only one dimenson, or more than four

Actually we're well on our way to proving that there are more than four dimensions, it's called string theory. the problem is that the easiest way to prove it would be to know how many there actually are.

For 1 dimension you would either have time ( and nothing else) in which case there would be no space. for 2 or 3 dimensions you could have both space and time but none of the fundamental laws of the universe(s) could apply and you would end up with them being 'empty' and an empty universe would collapse in no time ( literally ), one of the features of your (at least) 4 dimensions it that every point in space time is filled with either real or virtual particles and thus does not collapse, or at least would/will do it as a process through time.

[ryuu]

ahh, but you cannot say that my theory is wrong by presenting theory of your own

[MMaggio]

Well, I see this is one site I don't need to visit...

[ryuu]

you dooo!

[Maarschalk]

It all depends of what the definition and assumption is of one dimension. If we assume 0 dimension is nothing, none existence, no space no time, absulote nothing...then 1 dimension needs to be something and that 1 dimension could have in it its own realm its own Universal laws and multiple dimensions. For arguments sake lets take a piece of paper which we consider for arguments sake and meaningful conversation 2 dimensional. Now we draw one straight line and we consider again that line to be 1 dimension for arguments sake to have a meaningful discussion. Now we zoom in on that thin line on a piece of thin paper a billion times or more and that piece of line becomes a 3 dimensional world of atoms and molecules........

[Edited on 6-30-2010 by Maarschalk]

[ryuu]

ahh, but what about string theory, which you used as an example earlier, strings are one dimensional, and therefore could make up a 1D universe

[Maarschalk]

I agree it all depends on the definition of 1 dimension for that 1 dimensional Universe......

[ryuu]

ok,anyway, i think i'ma have a break from this argument

[Maarschalk]

OK, Lunch time....LOL....

[verbosity]

Originally posted by ryuu
ahh, but what about string theory, which you used as an example earlier, strings are one dimensional, and therefore could make up a 1D universe

strings have one spatial dimension but also exist in time and are thus 2D minimum, and it's their vibrations that create the impression of objects at the larger scale and thus would need an extra dimension to 'vibrate' in.

but lets look at 1D you can either have a universe with only time and no space or a universe with space and no time. In one case you have space ( and therefore the possibility of stuff) but nothing ever happens ( cause there is no time ) or you have happening, but no stuff for it to happen to. This is a very simple explanation of a proof that already exists and you can easily expand this to include a proof that a 2D universe is impossible as well.

[Marvin]

Originally posted by verbosity

strings have one spatial dimension but also exist in time and are thus 2D minimum, and it's their vibrations that create the impression of objects at the larger scale and thus would need an extra dimension to 'vibrate' in.

I hate the idea of punching this tar baby but, what the heck ... riddle me this: why do strings vibrate?

[ryuu]

cause there is a dimension for them to vibrate in!

[Marvin]

That's not a how. Any more than saying people dance because there's a dance floor at the night club.