Physics of Warp Speed

[Sinbad]

I was just wondering exactly how does warp speed work?

I know that in reality it's a technology that doesn't currently exist, but does anyone know if there is any sound scientific principle behind the theory?

As I understand it from general science fiction sources it works along the lines of compressing space-time in front of you whilst expanding it behind you. Somehow it's necessary to create a warp field around your ship which I suppose would keep you in normal proportions and prevent you from being stretched out across the intervening distance between the warp entry and exit points.

Also, is the warp speed which is produced with a fulcrum drive the same as going through a wormhole?

And, in Legends we warp instantaneously to our destination whereas in Star Trek they spend hours or days in warp speed and can see the stars going past... would that actually happen?:o

[Ravenfeeder]

I believe that Einstein had a theory on that subject: Objective and subjective time. The basis being that the faster an object travelled the less time it was subjected to. If you had a manned object, in space, under constant, or pulse acceleration, then, to an observer, at some point it would exceed the speed of light. However, to those aboard such a craft, they would never actually reach the speed of light, but the distance between other space objects would shrink - I've possibly got it all wrong, but, what the hell!

On something that, today, is supposed to affect space/time you can look up research into "White power gold", an M-state superconductor, and a bloke called David Hudson, a fascinating story of his research.

[Maarschalk]

A lot of interesting questions about sience fiction. Even though a lot of it is based on scientific theories that are hard to prove or disprove some of it is not and is just based on immagination. I think Jumping from point to point in time space is possible with something like a fulcrum drive and is like almost instantly and faster then the speed of light obviously. Then there is traveling at almost the speed of light. Now whormholes I'm not sure of, has any been observed in real space? and maybe traveling through them is the same as jumping from point to point in time space and is the difference in potential of the space time continueum between to points and is invisible....

[verbosity]

the fulcrum is a type of jump drive, you can think of it in the same way as the ( mis-named ) battlestar gallatica FTL-drive. it transports you from one point in space to another instantly. Wormholes would have a similar effect after crossing the event horizon.

Wormholes have never been observed ( actually in physics any black hole could in theory be a wormhole but its impossible to tell), and for it to be possible you'd need white holes to exist as well, and currently they have not been observed.

with the star movement in star trek, even if you were traveling at near light speed 9 say 99.9%) you would see the stars move but it'd be pretty slow, something slightly faster than the speed they move about in the night sky.

[Nigel_Strange]

Everyone, download Celestia and try flying at the speed of light, just to see how slow it seems on a cosmic scale. I assure you that no vidgame would get very much attention if you were limited to the speed of light.

As for fulcrum jump drives, they fold space: traveling between two points without moving.

The problem with compressing space in front of you and lengthening it behind you is that, when you're done, and space reverts back, you're back where you started.

[Marvin]

Nigel, that last observation is thought-provoking.

If the distance between Sol and Alpha Centauri is about average, then stars are spaced about 3 light years apart. Meaning, after you pass one star, you must travel 3 light years (distance) before passing another. When you figure that, in Star Trek, the stars appear to travel across the viewscreen in two or three minutes ... that would mean you're moving about one light year per minute. But the speed of light is one light year per year. So, warp speed must be really, really fast (how else could Kirk travel all the way to the galaxy's rim in the second pilot ... but it takes Janeway decades to get out of the Delta quadrant?).

As for the mechanics of warp speed: find some real soap and a popsicle stick; flatten one side of the stick; smear the flat end with soap; place the stick in a tub of water ... and watch it go!

[SDWeimer]

If i am not mistaken warp speed means you create a warpo bubble around the craft that you are in ane space moves while you stand still. here is the wikipedia definition
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warp_speed

[Edited on 2-14-2010 by SDWeimer]

[Maarschalk]

Nice reading, thanks SDWeimer.....

[MMaggio]

Originally posted by SDWeimer
If i am not mistaken warp speed means you create a warpo bubble around the craft that you are in ane space moves while you stand still. here is the wikipedia definition
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warp_speed

[Edited on 2-14-2010 by SDWeimer]

I know it's just a typo, but I love the word, "warpo"!:P
I'd rather use that than just plain, "jump"!
"Let's warpo the heck outta' here!"
I'm sure there are other uses...

[verbosity]

Originally posted by Marvin
. So, warp speed must be really, really fast (how else could Kirk travel all the way to the galaxy's rim in the second pilot ... but it takes Janeway decades to get out of the Delta quadrant?).

According to voyager they can do about 1000 light-years per year ( though star trek is known for breaking its canon on a regular basis ) , its worth pointing out that we are much closer to the edge of our galaxy than we are from the center, and that voyager had to travel round from the other side of the galaxy, probably having to avoid the center ( yeah i know kirk traveled to the center of the galaxy, but really its much too dense there).

Also our current understanding of physics is not the definitive rule. it is more than possible that general relativity will need to be tweaked ( lots of examples, my favourite being dark energy ).

[Marvin]

Originally posted by verbosity

... its worth pointing out that we are much closer to the edge of our galaxy than we are from the center ....

IIRC, we are approximately 33,000 light years from the center of a galaxy that has a radius of about 50,000 light years. We are also slightly below the galactic equator.

Janeway's calculations for transiting the Delta quadrant were IAW the Trek cannon at the time. It's TOS that continually "violated" all the laws ... but, of course, that's usually the way it happens when you make stuff up: it takes a while to get your story straight.

[SDWeimer]

Me I personally want to have the drive on the Event Horizon , nothing better than what I would assume is a fold drive that takes you to hell, quite lterally (if one believes in such a place). Also why does being sucked into a black hole in scifi = time travel? other than the fact that it is a supermassive tear in space time.

[verbosity]

Originally posted by Marvin
Janeway's calculations for transiting the Delta quadrant were IAW the Trek cannon at the time. It's TOS that continually "violated" all the laws ... but, of course, that's usually the way it happens when you make stuff up: it takes a while to get your story straight.

Please don't try to argue that voyager is accurate as far as the 'canon' is concerned. Seriously is we can travel at 1000 light years per year thats slightly less than 3 light years per day, not a realistic speed for interstellar travel. Janeway repeatedly breaks the prime directive ( as well as others ) and yet jumps on her high horse when she suspects someone else might be doing so. Voyager is by far the worst series as far as canon goes.

@SDWeimer : If we assume that we live in an infinite universe then everything that can be possible must be true. Therefore if hell is possible then it must exist

[Marvin]

Originally posted by verbosity

If we assume that we live in an infinite universe then everything that can be possible must be true. Therefore if hell is possible then it must exist

I'm just glad I don't live in the universe where a room full of monkeys wrote the program for EL.

[Nigel_Strange]

Yes, you're just in a universe where a room full of monkeys writes on forums.

[49rTbird]

And what a nice room it is! :P:D

[BraveHart]

LOL ......and yet the Banana's are always late But the Coffee sure is Good!

[Maarschalk]

ROFL......I thought this was a univewse wewe a woom full of wabbits wwite on fowums, now wewe awe the cawwots....:P:P:P:P

[Marvin]

Originally posted by Nigel_Strange

Yes, you're just in a universe where a room full of monkeys writes on forums.

... ... ... ... ... ... indeed.

[Sinbad]

Thanks guys to your responses to my original post. Quite a variety of posts... from Einstein to monkeys on forums!

It's interesting to read how space and time are linked to gravity. Perhaps if a way to manipulate gravity was discovered you could control the time on a spaceship relative to time outside it in order to travel vast distances. So if you slowed down time on your ship, events outside would go faster and you would arrive at your destination in what would be for you a fraction of the time.

I like the explanation found in one of the above links why nothing can go faster than the speed of light; that matter is basically held together by electromagnetic forces. Since electromagnetic energy travels at light speed, a piece of matter couldn't exceed that speed without disintegrating (or somehow ceasing to exist... ie it's impossible to achieve). So the key to achieving Warp speed must lie in finding a way to manipulate space-time, ie to "fold" space.

So what would we see if we looked out through our windshield whilst we were traveling at Warp speed? Well I guess if we were traveling faster than light we wouldn't be able to see any light coming from sources external to our ship, ie just blackness(?). But maybe there might be some visual effect if our technology for creating Warp involved the use of electromagnetic or gravitational fields which might interact with particles close to the external surface of our ship... maybe be a sort of aurora. But I don't think we would see the stars gracefully sliding past as in Star Trek.

As for wormholes, it seems to me that they would most likely be created from massive gravity wells which could cause space-time to buckle enough to touch another distant point of space-time.... something like a blackhole. I imagine that where these two points touch would be like having two realities existing together at the same time. The question is which reality would you experience? Perhaps it's like Shroedinger's cat from quantum theory. So which reality you experience might be governed by quantum maths functions. If we could discover how to control the outcome of any quantum function we could choose which side of the wormhole to "appear".

[Marvin]

Originally posted by MCCON

Since electromagnetic energy travels at light speed, a piece of matter couldn't exceed that speed without disintegrating (or somehow ceasing to exist... ie it's impossible to achieve).

How about magnetism itself ... who has managed to measure its speed?

So what would we see if we looked out through our windshield whilst we were traveling at Warp speed? Well I guess if we were traveling faster than light we wouldn't be able to see any light coming from sources external to our ship, ie just blackness(?).

Two words: Doppler shift. (Although absorbtion lines shift within the electromagnetic spectrum, depending on speed and direction, the visible light from most stars is only part of the EM spectrum. Energy of longer wavelength, when measured at a standstill, will shorten as you approach at faster speeds. Conversely, wavelengths will elongate the faster you travel away from the source. At the speed of light, all EM energy directly in front of you would be compressed into the highest frequency (shortest wavelength) ... invisible gamma rays. All EM energy directly behind you would be elongated into radio waves. But EM energy originating anywhere between those two extremes would come closer to emitting visible light ... perhaps a halo of white light perpendicular to and circling your ship ... with the color fading to red behind you and fading to blue in front ... until the colors faded altogether.)

If you're moving faster than the speed of light, you might want to compare the doppler effect of light with the doppler effect of sound ... and contemplate this:

From Wikipedia: When the more complicated exact equation is derived without using any approximations (just assuming that source, receiver, and wave or signal are moving linearly relatively to each other) several interesting and perhaps surprising results are found. For example, as Lord Rayleigh noted in his classic book on sound, by properly moving it would be possible to hear a symphony being played backwards. This is the so-called "time reversal effect" of the Doppler effect.

[Maarschalk]

Well if you were traveling faster then the speed of light you might see something no one have seen before
namely particles that can travel faster then the speed of light and a whole new spectrum of particles. We do not know if it is possible to travel faster than the speed of light because we can not see anything that is traveling faster than the speed of light. And anything that starts to travel beyond the speed of light dissapears.....:P:P:P:P People believed for a long time that it was impossible to go faster then the speed of sound....

[49rTbird]

Faster than light (bud lite lol) may mean you will still see light ahead of you but not behind? Oh my head:(!!

[Maarschalk]

ROFL.......Light is good for your brain....bud lite not so good for your brain...thought is faster than the speed of light....but not if it is swimming in bud lite.....:P:P:P:P

[Marvin]

Originally posted by Maarschalk

People believed for a long time that it was impossible to go faster then the speed of sound....

What did you say? I don't think I heard you.