Short - Would you see the universe, in a drop of water?

[warsign]

Originally posted by alpha45

To get an idea of how most discussions like this usually turn out, check the comments section of any YouTube video concerning a touchy topic. That didn't happen here, which shows you are mature, considerate people who (unlike many other people on the internet) are quite capable of having a good discussion. It makes me proud to be part of this little online community we've got here.

Nice message Alpha. Good people, nice level in here, open minded community. I always will be follower of direct and open discussions. There is nothing to worry about. Level is very important, we have good level and respect in here imo.

[Edited on 1-28-2010 by warsign]

[tha_rami]

Yeah, I'm glad - people here seem to understand that there are different understandings of the same thing .

[Edited on 28-1-2010 by tha_rami]

[Sinbad]

Originally posted by Nigel_Strange

If it was created, then it was created by someone outside this 4d box. Therefore, there is no way for us to know about that creator unless that creator communicates with us. We can't reach outside our box, but must hope that someone from outside reaches in.

At a first glance it may seem that way, but should we be so quick to conclude that there are no other realities beyond that which the physical senses can detect? Science itself is beginning to give hints of other levels of existence which, not so long ago, we would have thought to be pure fantasy. There have been many individuals throughout history who have claimed to be able to reach outside of our "box", and have even tried to show us how to do it ourselves.

Nor, can we trust other people's experiences, for how can we verify or validate whether someone else has had this contact? I do not believe this is possible.

What if we were handed down a set of detailed proceedures to follow, together with a description of what we should find if we followed those steps? In just about all of the worlds spiritual traditions can be found individuals who have left behind just such instructions. Take for example the ancient Hindu scriptures called the Upanishads. Reading through these you can find detailed instructions relating step-by-step how the mystics explored the nature of mind and infinity, carefully describing what they experienced as they proceeded further and further with their "experiments". Just as an independent scientist recreates the conditions of the experiment in order to prove (or disprove as the case may be) the original findings of the previous scientist, so too can anyone attempt to follow the instructions of the ancient mystics from the world's spiritual traditions. If the same conditions are met then we as individuals should be able to ascertain for ourselves the truth of the claims made by mystics, prophets, and messiahs.

Originally posted by Maarschalk

We can in no way convince others of our beliefs we can only convince ourself by independant investigation of the truth.

I totally agree with you Maars. I think religions shouldn't be marching around the world trying to impose their beliefs on others, often giving rise to war and terrorism as a result of extremists. Instead we should be peacefully working together, valuing other religious perspectives and respecting the freewill of individuals to investigate the truth in whatever way they choose.

[tha_rami]

I totally agree with you Maars. I think religions shouldn't be marching around the world trying to impose their beliefs on others, often giving rise to war and terrorism as a result of extremists. Instead we should be peacefully working together, valuing other religious perspectives and respecting the freewill of individuals to investigate the truth in whatever way they choose.

I'm afraid that any ideology, even not having an ideology, is going to lead to struggle, war and terrorism. As long as there's disagreement, there's going to be conflict. As long as there is inequality, there's going to be conflict. And, for the sake of everything we know, lets hope disagreement and inequality will stay - if only for the sake of progress.

[alpha45]

Originally posted by tha_rami
I'm afraid that any ideology, even not having an ideology, is going to lead to struggle, war and terrorism. As long as there's disagreement, there's going to be conflict. As long as there is inequality, there's going to be conflict. And, for the sake of everything we know, lets hope disagreement and inequality will stay - if only for the sake of progress.

Unfortunately, I have to agree. Competition fuels innovation. As two sides find new and innovative ways to kill each other, new technologies are born. For example, rockets used to reach space. While they are used nowadays to deploy and repair satellites, and are usually used in peaceful endeavors, they may not have existed had it not been for the Second World War, and the Cold War. The first real long range rockets were developed by Nazi Germany, to bombard civilian targets in Britain. (as a side note, they also created the predecessor to the jet engine) The Cold War saw this technology being developed into missiles (with the help Nazi scientists given immunity in exchange for helping with new technologies) which could carry a nuclear warhead, and reach any part of the world. Fortunately for us, we never saw them in action. That rocket technology was then used in the Space Race, in which the Soviets got the first man into space, and the Americans got the first man on the moon. Had Nazi Germany never existed and the Second World War never happened, we wouldn't have space rockets, satellites (no Satellite TV, and no modern phone network, no GPS) the jet engine, and the International Criminal Court (the Nuremberg Trials were the first international trials which led to the feel for a need for a permanent international court).

[Wasp89]

Originally posted by Accountant
I think this quote is a manifestation of the different views we share. I understand what you are saying. We really are just a tiny speck in the great cosmos. If you don't believe in anything greater than ourselves then it is easy to despair because, really, what is the point of it all? But whereas you and/or the person you quoted are seeing the earth from the entirety of the universe, I am viewing the universe as a truly magnificent and breathtaking gift designed for our wonderment. I truly believe we have a privileged position in the universe. We are privileged because it was all built for us. You can despair at how infinitely small we are or wonder at how infinitely vast the universe is. It is a very slight difference in viewpoint, but it makes all the difference in the world.

-Accountant

[Edited on 1-26-2010 by Accountant]

"For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made."

Romans 1:19-20

"What is the chief end of man?"
"Man’s chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy him forever."

~First question and answer of the Westminster Shorter Catechism

The universe is so big because God Is. "For his invisible attributes...have been clearly perceived...in the things that have been made." While the vastness and beauty of the universe is one of God's great mercies on us (that is, a gift for our enjoyment), I believe that it's sheer size is meant to make us (properly) feel small. When we look at the hugeness even just our galaxy--let alone our own solar system--it humbles us.

Originally posted by alpha45
I realized just how minor and insignificant we are. Our planet is a raindrop, and the universe is a storm that stretches out for all eternity. If our planet were to suddenly be destroyed, the universe wouldn't care. The universe wouldn't even notice...

Precisely. Yet above all His creation, God favors man because man was created in God's image.

When faced with the vastness of the universe, when I realize our own seemingly insignificant place in this ocean of stars, my voice is silenced. No more can I cry against God's injustice. I examine our race's wickedness--but more than that, my own evil and sin. It's not a theoretical issue, it's deep, it pierces me to the core. I am silenced by God's glory, and my conscience is afflicted by the weight of my self idolatry. How can we be such narcissists? I'm the biggest narcissist I know, and I stand ashamed of my sin. To look upon the beauty of creation is to know God's glory and my unimportance. There is no summation of goodness or acts of worth that I can do which can save me in my wretchedness when I stand before a Holy God. God have mercy on me, through the blood of Christ our LORD and Savior--yes, our Lord, to whom all are accountable, before whom all are appointed to die once and then to face judgment!




"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God."

~Romans 3:19


[Edited on 1-28-2010 by Wasp89]

[49rTbird]

This thread is getting very deep and may belong elsewhere. Other threads have gone down this road so lets please get back to the Gaming which this forum is about. Thanks

[Nigel_Strange]

I find it interesting that when looking at the vast universe, your sins and wickedness do not seem insignificant. Your self-idolatry and your wretchedness are somehow magnified on a cosmic scale. This I do not understand.

In any case, I'm relieved to find the posters here are positive and mature, and I'm glad to be in your company, even if I am not in total agreement.

The idea of following a procedure for enlightenment is a great one. If you can self-verify the teachings, then they are indeed great.

[Maarschalk]

Originally posted by tha_rami

I totally agree with you Maars. I think religions shouldn't be marching around the world trying to impose their beliefs on others, often giving rise to war and terrorism as a result of extremists. Instead we should be peacefully working together, valuing other religious perspectives and respecting the freewill of individuals to investigate the truth in whatever way they choose.

I'm afraid that any ideology, even not having an ideology, is going to lead to struggle, war and terrorism. As long as there's disagreement, there's going to be conflict. As long as there is inequality, there's going to be conflict. And, for the sake of everything we know, lets hope disagreement and inequality will stay - if only for the sake of progress.

"If Religion is the cause of war and strife it would be better that there is no Religion"
Bahá'u'lláh

None of the true Religions advocated war and strife. It is human nature to rebel and learn from trial and strife, just like little children who do not obey their parents till they learn through trial and error because of their free will and exploring nature. Just like children fight over toys because of their selfishness and wants. And it is humans that have used and are using Religion as an excuse for War. War in the name of Religion has been condemned by all true Manifestations of God.

Through the friction of opposing arguments in consultations for the genuine investigation of the truth the spark of strife and conflict will light the lamp of guidance and illuminate the truth.

So it is OK to have disagreements as long as it is to explore and discover and learn and grow and develop and not use it as an excuse for a fight for selfish gain and power......

As for the Universe hidden in a drop of water......how about it being hidden in an Atom.

"Split the hart of an Atom and within it you will find a Sun"
Bahá'u'lláh

This last quotation was revealed to the World before the discovery of fission and fusion and the splitting of Atoms was discovered.

How many particles have since been discovered within one single Atom?.....

[Wasp89]

Originally posted by Nigel_Strange
I find it interesting that when looking at the vast universe, your sins and wickedness do not seem insignificant. Your self-idolatry and your wretchedness are somehow magnified on a cosmic scale. This I do not understand.

In any case, I'm relieved to find the posters here are positive and mature, and I'm glad to be in your company, even if I am not in total agreement.

It is ironic, isn't it? My friend, the beauty of our universe is a picture, a testament of God's goodness. It is as if the lights of the distant stars were cast upon our souls, illuminating our depravity; we are humbled, frightened. Our insecurities are brought into sharp relief. The very heavens cry out for us to repent! Most importantly, however, we realize that we are without excuse. And that is a truly terrifying thought to those not found to covered by the blood of Christ--Christ, the lamb who was slain as a sacrifice for our sin. Who bore the debt owed by the saints upon a cross, and died for them, though we have not in the least bit deserved it.

[Edited on 1-29-2010 by Wasp89]

[Nigel_Strange]

I don't think that religion causes war so much as war requires reliigon.

Sun Tzu wrote that unless your army is in the moral right, it will lose. What I think he meant was that the men won't fight a battle to the death if they believe that their side is not absolutely right in doing what it's doing.

Now, war is a collective exercise, not an individual one, so strategies that work on an individual level fail in war. Conversely, strategies that work for collective survival fail with individual survival.

It is therefore possible, if not likely, that endotoxic memes (memes which are pernicious to the individual that is owned by them) are effective as a collective strategy. For example, beehives. Bees die, individually, to protect the hive, so a an individual strategy, stinging an enemy is a failure, but as a collective strategy, it works.

Religion, then, is a method by which to convince your men to die for you. I would hesitate to say that this is wrong because it works. If you have two sides who are fighting a war, and one side believes that God wants them to kill unbelievers, while the other side is just there because they just want the resources, all other things being equal, the first side will win. If you want men to die for you, they need to believe that they are dying for something greater than themselves, and if they do not have this, then they will not fight, or at least, fight to the death.

So, if they are fighting for the very survival of their own people, they will fight...unless they have been convinced that their own people are morally inferior and do not deserve to survive, in which case, they will lose, and eventually, they will die out.

So, for a collective strategy, any belief (delusion or not) that convinces people that it is morally imperative that they die for something is a winning strategy. Any side that does not take advantage of this strategy is at a severe disadvantage.

For example, someone who plays chess but who is unwilling to sacrifice or capture pieces because he does not believe that the rights of pawns, knights, or bishops should ever be violated, no matter which side they're on, will always lose.

[Ravenfeeder]

Atheist: A person with no invisible means of support! Religion: A spiritual way of life that has been politicised.

I thought that this forum was about EL, the game, not EL the ancient Persian God.

[MMaggio]

I gotta' admit, I think this thread has strayed pretty far afield.
Wrap it up and let's get back to Evochron Legends material.

[Ravenfeeder]

The point about "the world of the raindrop" was that there were countless raindrops, all falling, all with the same attributes with the added thought, that we, ourselves, may well be within a raindrop.

[Nigel_Strange]

Oh, the time to stop this thread has passed long ago.

Now we are lost in space without enough fuel to return home.

[Maarschalk]

LOL.....just follow the Beacons and you'll get back to Evochron.....Hahahaha.....:P:P:P:P

[Edited on 1-30-2010 by Maarschalk]

[tha_rami]

Maybe I shouldn't write shorts anymore .

[Maarschalk]

No, no, no, don't stop tha_rami that was a great short you wrote. I think it was the title of the short that was very intriguing and gave rise and fuel for a lively and interresting dialogue. Your writing was great and I enjoy reading more of your shorts.......