In-flight weapon loading...

Coma · Post by **Coma** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:24 pm

lol the fuel wasnt a sugestion it was just to make a point about how far you take it personaly id rather see this limited to just missile systems as swapping guns seems a bit silly if you have a time frame...after all are you realy gonna change guns half way through a fight?? i certainly wouldnt and why change them at any other time anyway while flying??

Berdyon · Post by **Berdyon** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:31 pm

Well, the reason why I'm in favor of actually "load it all" is because I got this picture in my head of a ship silently floating in space while crew members are sweating from mechanic work. I mean, I hire crew to work, especially the "engineers". I can buy weapons and equipment but can have my crew mount it. They can do it in dock, but also in space, it just takes a little more time in space...

You know how they build the ISS?

[Edited on 2-25-2008 by Berdyon]

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:35 pm

You might want to carry a high-yield and low-yield cannon and swap between them while taking on carriers and their escorts, for one example...

Post by **Vice** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:41 pm

Yup, you might also want to swap to a high firing rate particle cannon when in low tech systems, so there can be some advanced planning strategy there also.

Berdyon · Post by **Berdyon** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:53 pm

So.... most people are in favor?

It's just the "how" that makes the difference?

dogeddie · Post by **dogeddie** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:54 pm

Another option is to allow reloading of equipped weapons only, while having to dock to switch weapon types.

Berdyon · Post by **Berdyon** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:55 pm

Ermm, that would be "missiles only" then, right?

Coma · Post by **Coma** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:59 pm

Thats a valid point but im still not convinced swapping guns is a good idea but thats just me...

Goatnado386 · Post by **Goatnado386** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:20 pm

I accidentally voted FOR changing them in space. I meant to vote for reloading while docked... so, adjust accordingly.

Post by **Vice** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:38 pm

So.... most people are in favor?

Feedback I've gotten in the past on this forum and in e-mails suggest about a 3:1 in favor of ratio, so yes.

It's just the "how" that makes the difference?

Yup, most seem to want to simply switch it 'on the fly' (little or no time delay).

49rTbird · Post by **49rTbird** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:49 pm

I vote for some type of delay as a crew may be fast but not instant. This is after all not a quick draw contest.

Tucker · Post by **Tucker** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:51 pm

I'm in favor of it. I am paying a weapons officer for something let him load weapons. If its just missle targeting the guidance system would in real life do more of that than the weapons officer did. As an internal mounted hardpoint It makes sense it could be changed out. The balance would come from the fact that it would take up cargo room so I could not carry as much stuff and I could not pick up as many dropped items if I choose to carry missles in my cargo bay. Again the time to load would be based on how proficient the person was at the function. Its been that way since the times of reloading cannons on ships of war. Some crews could reload faster than other. So if I open the inventory screen and do the changout slower than someone else they would be able to fire at me while I was still loading.

[Edited on 2-25-2008 by Tucker]

Berdyon · Post by **Berdyon** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:54 pm

ncc386, would you still be "against" if there would be a time penalty? (first trying to get everyone to be "for", then we can work out the "how')

tha_rami · Post by **tha_rami** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:55 pm

If this is implemented, I personally feel it would be a massive setback in the course towards a more challenging game. Vice listed how a smaller frame would have a better chance against a larger one, but I wonder if you considered the opposite? The heavier frames will now surely blast away the smaller ones, without any chance, simply by having additional missile slots. This also shifts balance towards the richer players since they can afford more expensive missiles.

I think it would be a terrible move.

dogeddie · Post by **dogeddie** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:26 pm

Tha Rami, I see you have posted some 5,000 times. Obviously the game is easy for you if you have been playing that long. I find it quite challenging, however. I assume that in speaking of richer players you mean in MP, and again, not everyone plays MP either. No offense.

MMaggio · Post by **MMaggio** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:28 pm

Originally posted by Vice
It will only be limited to weapons and equipment.

I gotta' stick my two cents in here. Number one, I am totally against the idea. That being said, there are possibilities.
Vice, if it's possible to access weapons and equipment from the cargo bay, then there is no logical reason why the player can't access fuel as well. If you offer one, you have to assume the same principle applies to all commodities.
Like I said, I am vehemently against the idea, but I will probably outvoted. In that case, I offer the following suggestions;
First, if you allow access to commodities in storage, then it follows that any commodity can be accessed.
Second, if players insist in this feature, then I think it only reasonable that, in order to take commodites of any kind from cargo bays, ie: missiles, and install them on external hardpopints, while in deep space, during combat..., I demand that it require the assistanc of both a "Weapons and an Enginner" officer.
I realise that "Demand" is a harsh word, but think about it. The pilot is busy flying the ship and can't take the time to transfer/load missiles, etc. so if you insist on offering this mod, at least make it realistic enough to require a sufficient crew to make the swap, such as a "Weapons" officer, And an "Enginner".
Some players request "realism". How can you justify missiles miraculously appearing from the cargo bay to hardpoints without a crew to do it. It's like a submarine game with unlimited torpedoes!
I thought the original idea about carrying missiles/weapons in the cargo hold was for possible trade at other stations/systems. It was never intended that they be somehow miraclously transfeerd to a hardpoint for player use.
That's my two cents worth...

[Edited on 2-25-2008 by MMaggio]

Archangel · Post by **Archangel** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:45 pm

Im with rami. I could see changeing missiles as being more practical then guns but then your esentaly increcing the missile payload. Ive played around with diffrent tactics in battle and could esaly open the inventory menu and swap things out against a rather large AI force without a scratch. One of the advantages of the phisics (sorry about the spelling) of this game. It would be vurtualy imposible against a player but curently MP isnt that big.

Personaly I think the current amount of missiles is plenty. If your constantly running out of missiles your being to missile happy. But then Ive always been a gun person myself. It sounds to me as though the main reason behind this is to get a larger missile payload. Which (to me atleast) is esentaly the same old guns vs missiles argument that goes on in every space sim. People naturaly want more missiles because their a quick and esay way to kill your enemys. I think its ballenced well as is. If you run out of missiles in a fight you should have been more conservitive. Your not SOL though you still have your guns, may take more work but with practice they are far more flexable of a weppon.

And if you dont want to reaload quickly on base use your guns to kill the badys before you land. Even without missiles you have a number of diffrent tactics at your desposal because of the way this game is designed.

And yes Ive tryed combat using only guns, took out 5 fighters and a cap ship. It hurt but it can be done. Combat should be about exploring diffrent tactics, not carying a bunch of missiles.

Thats my opion atleast.

tha_rami · Post by **tha_rami** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:04 pm

Yes, doggedie, I've got 5422 posts, this being the 5423th one, I guess. But, my skills in game usually limit themselves to environmental tricks, mining and exploration. My combat skills usually come down to running. I'd rather not spend money on missiles in my SP account.

My MP account is maxed out, though.

Berdyon · Post by **Berdyon** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:10 pm

I'm still only seeing two sides:

One side wants to be able to switch without needing to dock.
The other side says it's progressive for the combat side of the game.

I'm still saying a time penalty server both...

Post by **Vice** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:20 pm

How can you justify missiles miraculously appearing from the cargo bay to hardpoints without a crew to do it.

The same way it is starting to be done in modern tanks, automatic weapon loading systems. I think the latest generation of tanks can load a huge cannon projectile in under 4-5 seconds now, which replaces the crew doing it in about 30-60 seconds. So the problem could be solved by a real world, present day technology, just advanced for the design of each spacecraft. However, with that being said:

I demand that it require the assistanc of both a "Weapons and an Enginner" officer.

That's certainly interesting. What if the system required a rather lengthy time period to transfer the weapons/equipment, but those crew members could help speed up the process a lot (depending on their skill, maybe doubling or tripling the speed). The timed delay seems to address the biggest complaint those who are against the idea have and this would be a way for the player to further manage how the process would work.

Yes, MP is a consideration and is actually one of the main 'for' arguments I've received in feedback. Some players want additional options they can handle 'on the fly' during multiplayer engagements. One way to help balance this might indeed be the time period, where if you bother to travel all the way to a station, you can switch your weapons quickly as before, but if you're in open space, it takes a lot longer.

tha_rami · Post by **tha_rami** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:26 pm

Well, I won't be hiding disappointment about this one, but you know you've got the final say.

49rTbird · Post by **49rTbird** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:30 pm

I play SP more than MP and the ability to change my weapons and or equipment on the fly would be a wonderful way to go.

Berdyon · Post by **Berdyon** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:36 pm

I demand that it requires the assistanc of both a "Weapons and an Enginner" officer.
That's certainly interesting. What if the system required a rather lengthy time period to transfer the weapons/equipment, but those crew members could help speed up the process a lot (depending on their skill, maybe doubling or tripling the speed). The timed delay seems to address the biggest complaint those who are against the idea have and this would be a way for the player to further manage how the process would work.

That's about it, you got my vote!

[Edited on 2-25-2008 by Berdyon]

Post by **Vice** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:38 pm

Ok, just for now, please keep comments, requests, and points you want to make in this thread please

I realize many of you reading this may not want to use the forum and don't have an account, but please consider it for this thread however. If not, please put as many of your comments/points into one e-mail. I'd like to use this thread as the basis for the discussion rather than e-mail (really helps me keep it organized better chronologically). I like to hear responses to various points/arguments from others in this public format, at least just for this gameplay concept. Further comments/discussion I'd like to review involve these:

- If a time limit is implemented, should it only apply for weapons and should equipment simply plug right in?

- Time periods per weapon being loaded: 30 seconds with no crew, 10-20 seconds with crew depending on skill?

- Unloading is immediate, since the weapon is simply unclipped, but loading is where the time delay applies or should a time limit apply in both directions?

- Arguments against a time limit at all? If you prefer immediate loading/unloading, please state any points on why it should be that way.

I play SP more than MP and the ability to change my weapons and or equipment on the fly would be a wonderful way to go.

Hehe, ironically, much of the support for this change originally came from multiplayer users.

[Edited on 2-25-2008 by Vice]

Berdyon · Post by **Berdyon** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:48 pm

If a time limit is implemented, should it only apply for weapons and should equipment simply plug right in?

It should apply for everything (nothing can be done is a split second), but missiles should take less time than for instance a new gun.
Time periods per weapon being loaded: 30 seconds with no crew, 10-20 seconds with crew depending on skill?

A missile, I could with live that time frame. A gun, in ten seconds? I would vote for a little more...
Unloading is immediate, since the weapon is simply unclipped, but loading is where the time delay applies or should a time limit apply in both directions?

Since unloading doesn't give you any advantage the time needed to unload doesn't matter, you could see it as deactivating, which can be done in a split second. Only when immediatly loading something else does the unload time make a difference. In my opinion the 30 - 10 seconds for a missile would include hypothetic unload time. In other words, unload time is not required.
Arguments against a time limit at all? If you prefer immediate loading/unloading, please state any points on why it should be that way.

No arguments against.[/list=a]

Takes some time making that list as well formatted as it is

[Edited on 2-25-2008 by Berdyon]