In-flight weapon loading...

[Vice]

Please vote for which option you would prefer. Enough requests have come in that I am adding this to the concept list for the next build. The choice is whether or not you want to be able to load weapons from your cargo bay to hardpoints in-flight. This would also include ship equipment such as cargo scanners and jump drives.

[Kveldulf]

It makes more sense to me to require the ship to be in dock in order to load weapons, missiles and such, as I dont really think you can load them with any reasonable explanation short of getting out and fitting it yourself.

Equipment though, I think could be fitted in-flight though. No reason why you coudlnt just park in a nebula somewhere and go replace the jumpdrive via a matinence hatch.

[Vice]

Save for the fact the weapons themselves are kept internally on the ship, not mounted on the outside of it (similar to how a modern F-22 jet fighter keeps its weapon internal for a lower radar profile). So in theory, the crew could install the weapons by having access to the internal installation locations. You could have a maintenance hatch for equipment and an access hatch for the missile bay and primary weapon hardpoints.

[Edited on 2-25-2008 by Vice]

[Kveldulf]

Originally posted by Vice
Save for the fact the weapons themselves are kept internally on the ship, not mounted on the outside of it (similar to how a modern F-22 jet fighter keeps its weapon internal for a lower radar profile). So in theory, the crew could install the weapons by having access to the internal installation locations. You could have a maintenance hatch for equipment and an access hatch for the missile bay and primary weapon hardpoints.

[Edited on 2-25-2008 by Vice]

Fair enough. I wasn't aware of that fact. In that case, I suppose it would make sense to load them yourself, if we assume the crew has in-flight access to the hardpoints.

[Mechanical]

That's a tough one.

If there were a way to implement a time element, as in it takes a minute or something to load them, that would be okay, but I imagine that makes the update considerably more difficult to implement.

I guess I'm neutral on that issue. What if it that ability required employing a weapons officer? If you could add a reload time to it (which would help balancing in general as well), the higher his skill the faster he could do it.



[Edited on 2-25-2008 by Mechanical]

[Vice]

There would likely be a brief time delay while you opened the inventory console and might have to shuffle around some parts to switch to the one(s) you want. Probably not something you could safely do in the middle of a dogfight

[Nigel_Strange]

I'm almost afraid to chime in here, because I might automatically polarize everyone to the other side.

But, I'll take a chance.

I like the idea. Everything would seem to be internal (since you can't actually see it on the outside of your ship).

Besides, I think one time I thought I was loading something from one place to another, and I ended up dropping it. Oddly, when you drop something in space, it just vanishes. You'd think that you'd see a crate behind you somewhere, but no. It's just gone into thick space. I had a little trouble remembering whether you could load from the equipment slot to the cargo bay, but not vice versa, or vice versa. Seems like you should be able to move it either direction without having it vanish inexplicably.

Not sure how the controls would work. I usually use the "j" key on cargo drop missions, but I don't usually have other cargo on board that I'm not dropping when I do those. It is possible you might want to drop one cargo slot. I think it's lmb for dropping, and rmb for moving, right?

[Vice]

Oddly, when you drop something in space, it just vanishes. You'd think that you'd see a crate behind you somewhere, but no. It's just gone into thick space.

Nope, you're likely discarding it rather than jettisoning it. If you left click on it from the cargo list, you discard it, causing it to explode so no one else can have it. If you click on Jettison or the default J key, you drop it out the back of your ship, so you can then turn around and see the crate behind you.

It is possible you might want to drop one cargo slot. I think it's lmb for dropping, and rmb for moving, right?

Left mouse button is for discarding, not dropping, right mouse button is for transferring. You can discard one cargo bay, but jettisoning the entire bay drops anything you had in the cargo bay. With the option to transfer individual items to/from the ship in any direction, you would then have more control over things like that, so it could be a very useful option from that standpoint.

[Archangel]

I dont like it. They did it in darkstar and while I used that feature all the time was never something I cared for. It just makes it too esay, you swap out what you need as you go. It eliminates the need to divert to a station to swap out equipment between diffrent tasks.

Changeing equipment such as weppons is something that would take time. True its instantanius on stations but Ive always justified that because it takes time to get to the station. Haveing the feature to change them out in space to me atleast makes it seem as though changeing weppons is as quick and esay as changeing a lightbulb. Weppons are heavy (going with your F-22 example Vice) they have teams of people with special equipment to load and unload the weppons.

I relize that because this is the future advancments would have come along to make it faster but they would still be heavy and hard to move around inside a fighter.

Maybe I'm old fashond but swaping stuff like that is something I beleve one should have to dock for. Could see it on something like a cap ship but not a fighter.

[Jeremy]

I'm all for it.

Considering that we're capable of designing fulcrum drives, Banshee cannons, and Talon fighters... it's really not a stretch to think that a mechanism capable of these transfers would have been invented.

As for the "It's too easy"...

No. Just no. Multiplayer isn't wildly popular. In any case, the delay and the fact that every other pilot could do it nullfies any "advantage" you might have, and as for the Single Player...
If you think it makes the game too easy for you... simple. Don't do it.

[rivalin]

Originally posted by Jeremy
If you think it makes the game too easy for you... simple. Don't do it.

I actually do think it's a good idea, but the old "if you don't like it don't do it" argument isn't really a valid one when you're discussing game design. Can you imagine starting an FPS you've been waiting to play for ages and finding that you can walk through walls, have infinite ammo and are invincible, and when you say that you think that it makes the game too easy someone responds with, "if you don't like it don't do it; just count the number of bullets on a notepad, and when you get shot restart the game". It's like someone asking for a higher diffculty setting and being told to play standing on one leg with one eye closed

If we're going to follow that logic why not start everyone off in the game with a billion credits, and if they don't like it they don't have to spend them, and there can be a button they can push to blow up all the enemies in the entire sector and if they don't like it the don't have to use it........

[tha_rami]

The game is easy as it is. I kinda miss the old 'oversimplifying'-argument nowadays.

I like how you put that, rivalin.

[Jeremy]

Originally posted by rivalin

Originally posted by Jeremy
If you think it makes the game too easy for you... simple. Don't do it.

I actually do think it's a good idea, but the old "if you don't like it don't do it" argument isn't really a valid one when you're discussing game design. Can you imagine starting an FPS you've been waiting to play for ages and finding that you can walk through walls, have infinite ammo and are invincible, and when you say that you think that it makes the game too easy someone responds with, "if you don't like it don't do it; just count the number of bullets on a notepad, and when you get shot restart the game". It's like someone asking for a higher diffculty setting and being told to play standing on one leg with one eye closed

If we're going to follow that logic why not start everyone off in the game with a billion credits, and if they don't like it they don't have to spend them, and there can be a button they can push to blow up all the enemies in the entire sector and if they don't like it the don't have to use it........

There's a massive difference between that and letting weapons be transferrable between cargo bays and hardpoints.

[tha_rami]

Yes, but his reasoning isn't about the actual act but about the reasoning that goes against 'making the game too easy'. In that way, his analogy is perfectly valid.

The game is too easy through certain acts, and 'not doing that' isn't a valid way to keep the game from being too easy. The only way that keeps standing is through a cheat code. And we don't have those. Besides, in multiplayer it would allow people to have 16 missiles. Also, I don't know how that works with Excalibur, but if what I think is possible, it would even allow for 64 missiles. Not that it matters, 16 missiles is too much. Being able to swap entire loadouts in flights disfunctionalizes the station as a Hub (which I'd rather see more functional by making them save points), and simplifies the game even further.

[Goatnado386]

Really, it would work either way. On paper, of course, it sounds better to require a ship to be docked in order to reload and/or install components. In practice, if you run out of missiles in the middle of a fight, it can get a little annoying to just be SOL. The only reason why I would suggest letting people reload in the middle of combat is because the game doesn't pause when you're in your inventory screen. In order to reload, the player is going to have to stop fighting and operate a menu system. That should be plenty of drawback. However, because the ship frames have varying amounts of missile hardpoints, it would immediately unbalance the game if you could reload while undocked.

So, I vote that you must be docked to modify your ship.

[Edited on 2-25-2008 by ncc386]

[dogeddie]

I want to be able to switch weapons in space. That's why I pay my crew so much money. Think about the actual amount of time it would take to travel the distances in this game, and then to say you can only configure weapons at stations? It's a game either way, you can't really imitate realism completely when you think of it that way.

[Exeneva]

Here's what I see:

If we can load weapons in-flight, the weapons system will immediately be broken (slang for totally cheap) because we will be able to immediately switch to excals, stealth devices, etc. in-flight during battles.

Equipment makes some sense, but would take time.

Here's what I propose:

Changing of weapons and equipment should be allowed, but TIME needs to have a factor. Immediately switching to excals after emptying your missile payload without any reload time is cheap. It makes sense that the crew can move items from the cargo bay to the weapons/equipment, but there should be a time limit!

Vice, verb, and everyone else - I might be able to fly this weekend. It's been months since I've had a battle!

[Edited on 2-25-2008 by Exeneva]

[49rTbird]

Would there or should there be a limit as to how many items or bays that could be transfered at a time? I can see this inflight feature as meaning more people would give up some other aspect of their ship as they would need more cargo bays and they eat up build points. This in itself would have an evening out as ships with more bays would have less speed or shields or what ever. Either way you go the game is fun.

[tha_rami]

I disagree with the pro-arguments.

The distance location holds no sense, everything is available with the press of a button, a mouseclick and another press of button. If you're good, one button is good enough. You can reach any location in seconds.

If you run out of missiles and still need them, you've done something wrong. Either you've underestimated the threat, or you've failed to buckle up properly. That's your fault, and that's one of the things that require planning up front. You don't just go into combat and sometimes you'll have to run.

Finally, hotdocking is an integral part of gameplay. If the station you want to reload at is under attack, you're either going to have to be fast, or you'll have to avoid going there. I can reload my entire arsenal in four seconds, and reload my fuel in 6. Flat. That's part of the challenge.

Life's like that. So should the game be - it's not Rambo, here, is it? It's not realism vs. gameplay, it's gameplay mechanics that are required to keep a certain amount of challenge. Loss of challenge is loss of fun. In that regard, I think this game could be even more fun with some extra difficulty and limitations.

[Vice]

If we can load weapons in-flight, the weapons system will immediately be broken (slang for totally cheap) because we will be able to immediately switch to excals, stealth devices, etc. in-flight during battles.

That's actually exactly what a lot of players are asking for. The risk is still there that they have to open the inventory console during battle, click on the items they want to swap around, then close the console again to re-engage, which leaves them very vulnerable while that occurs.

Time has been mentioned in a few posts, although consider that this would mean no weapons available for the slots being exchanged and that is something many players might see as a major negative. If machines are doing the swapping, they would likely be very fast.

I have been pondering the 'too easy' argument from a few players and it may have some merit, but we are talking about single missiles per bay, not sets of 2/4 or anything, so the offset is still rather light overall. The biggest impact might be switching to an excalibur after other missiles are exhausted, but there's still the delay to make the swap and I could force the excalibur to its reloading stage once it is installed, making the player have to wait before the weapon can be used. Good option or no?

In order to reload, the player is going to have to stop fighting and operate a menu system. That should be plenty of drawback. However, because the ship frames have varying amounts of missile hardpoints, it would immediately unbalance the game if you could reload while undocked.

Good points and that delay being sufficient is something that is reflected in the feedback I've received. I can also see the principle of carefully designing your ship now applying/extending to how you configure your cargo bays and weapons (to an entirely new level). That is, a light frame could become much more competitive against a heavy frame if the pilot chose to use several cargo bays to store missiles while the heavy frame decided to store some equipment or commodities instead, the light frame would have a better chance against the heavy frame because of how the pilot chose to load their ship. That is indeed a substantial expansion of 'designing for capabilities'.

[Berdyon]

To my belief this discussion has turned away a little from:

The choice is whether or not you want to be able to load weapons from your cargo bay to hardpoints in-flight.

Towards:

Should it be possible to load weapons during fight and use them immediatly?

Because the only "no" argument is that it would the game easier, which is true if there would be no time frame.
�f there would a large ebough time frame, like many suggest, it would not make the game easier, it would just be an extra feature.

Imagine:
You just fought a battle, no enemies in sight anymore. You spent all your missiles in battle but still got a number of them in your hold. You know the space station you want to go is likely going to be invested with baddies. Which captain would not be very frustrated by the fact that the missiles in the hold, while perfectly working, are useless?
So, if it would take for example 1 minute to load a missile, the captain could decide to load 4 missiles while beaming some loot from the destroyed baddies, and then return, fully prepared.
It'll just be a decision to make, are you willing to wait a while for extra battle capabilities or are you a diehard like tha_rami and take the chance to go to the space station without missiles to do the reload thingy in 6 seconds.

And with that I would like to vote "for loading" but only if it is not usefull during battle, for example by using a timeframe for the loading.

[Berdyon]

Hmmm hadn't read Vice's last post before I posted...

Still I stand by my vote.

I would just like to add another argument, altough it has already been countered (gameplay is more important than reality), The time frame is realistic.

Yes Vice, machines would be able to swap missiles fast, except that the missiles are lying the cargo hold, not in some kind of missile holder. The hold is designed to store stuff efficiently, you know, potatoes, cans of beans, missiles. I couldn't image someone rigging a cargo hold with a missile loader... If you would want that, why not just expand the existing "missile loader"?

[Coma]

The problem is how far do you go with this ......for instance why not be able to carry fuel in one cargo slot and be able to refuel from it if your doing a lot of exploring?? or do you just limit it to say missile systems only etc etc etc

[Berdyon]

Good point, maybe we should freeze in crew members in the cargo hold, when one leaves the ship you can defrost another

Actually, the fuel thing isn't a bad idea. It would create new design tactics:

Combat pilots would not invest assembly points in a big fuel tank but would just cary some extra in the hold.
Traders and miners would want to keep their holds free, so for them it's still gonna be an invest in fuel tank scenario.

[Vice]

It will only be limited to weapons and equipment.