In-flight weapon loading...

[Goatnado386]

I'm against unbalancing the game. Now, while I see no reason to change the current requirement of being docked, if a change is going to be made, then I would recommend a 10 second downtime for each and every change that is made while in space.

That would mean that if you have extra missiles, it would take 10 seconds PER missile to be moved from the cargo bay into a ready state. 10 seconds to change projectile or beam weapons.

10 seconds in the middle of combat will put the player at an extreme disadvantage. That's 10 seconds where you cannot launch a missile or fire your guns. Why else would you be reloading missiles or changing guns? Because you're out and you need them immediately or because you are changing strategies. 10 seconds later, while sounding relatively short on paper, can mean the difference between life and reloading a saved game in practice.

Any more than 10 seconds (in my opinion) will go too far and potentially unbalance gameplay in the opposite way.

[49rTbird]

The change would be of use in a non-combat way as I would like to have a cargo scanner available (at times) and a fuel converter (at times)when I in out exploring but have limited hardpoints and yes I know that is how the game started but look at all the improvments and changes that have come about. I know some will say then plan for it but I stay out a very long time and it would be nice to be able to change my equipment and my role if need be. There are not a lot of stations out in the boonies. This is just MY two cents worth. I will still enjoy the game no matter what.

[Vice]

For transfer time, factor in the crew, which if you hired a skilled weapons specialist and an engineer, could cut the time down significantly, although 10 seconds per missiles might be the fastest speed, guns will still take longer... just based on the feedback I've been getting. Otherwise, relying on no people to help would require a lot more time to transfer weapons to hardpoints, giving docking at a station a huge advantage.

I added the system as a test to the game and it didn't seem to change the dynamics of combat much, except that you were without a weapon for the time it took to complete a transfer, leaving you quite vulnerable if you wanted to take the risk. Your combat strategy is forced to a more defensive role until weapon transfers are complete and with only 5 maximum bays available, you can only provide 5 more missiles during the extra 1-3 minutes or so it takes to load them, and guess how many hostiles can show up as reinforcements during that time period? Challenge was just as high as more hostiles were flying in as I was waiting for weapons to transfer, which is a big factor that I think needs to be included in this discussion. So it worked well in practice and docking with a station is still the preferred method of switching weapons, by far. Especially if you want to use any cargo space for transporting cargo. Interesting so far, I'm continuing to test with and without it.

[Archangel]

Well my vote is still for B.

What can I say I'm extreamly stubern. However I trust ya Vice, and if in your testing youve come up with a time limit that makes it so its still more practical to dock at a station I wont complain.

I still dont feel as though its something thats needed in the game and I dont see any argument changeing my mind.

[MMaggio]

If, by your own tests, it offers no advantage, then what's the reason for it?
I want to vote twice: "B"

[Vice]

Only one vote But good point! My example is largely related to any potential combat advantages though, which is the area of concern being presented. And for combat, there doesn't seem to be much of a difference with the time delays I used. The one big variable in this entire thing is the length of time. Too long, and it truly isn't much different than it is now and docking with stations is the way to go. Too short and it gives the advantages listed in this thread that some are concerned about. If it is to be added, careful consideration needs to be given to the time period the process will take for each weapon type.

With a rather long time period, the only really useful purpose it would serve is preparing in advance for a really hostile system before you get there, while you are travelling to it. Or if you want to escape to a nebula cloud to perform the process during a contract or battle, rather than travel to a station.

[Edited on 2-26-2008 by Vice]

[tha_rami]

Until we can test ourselves...



This one's for you, Mike. Add another "B" for me.

[dogeddie]

Shakes head...... What does Vice want in his game?

[Edited on 2-26-2008 by dogeddie]

[tha_rami]

Vice wants what his fans want. He has always been like that on everything that is non-fundamental in his views of the game.

[dogeddie]

I asked Vice.

[Jeremy]

Um... nvm.

[Edited on 2/27/2008 by Jeremy]

[Vice]

Initially (as in for the last couple of years), I did not want in-space weapon swapping, but the arguments for it (from the dozens upon dozens of e-mails and messages to me asking about it), which include the additional strategic and planning options it brings in, have pursuaded me that it could indeed be a good option, if done 'right' to not radically alter current combat balance (risk-to-reward, heavy-to-light frame capabilities, etc). My concern is the risk that it will not be added correctly, so I am holding off on a final decision for now. Personally, I'm about 70/30 convinced it is a good idea, if done right.

This is not a core function/feature/design aspect of the game that I am inflexible on, this is a debatable feature that I am willing to consider both sides on. Some things I won't change or add

[Vice]

Then you'd be able to carry a repair system, a shield booster, a cargo scanner, a cannon relay system, a jump drive, a mining beam, and a fuel converter(did I miss any?) simultaneously.

That's not correct (I'm beginning to wonder if some are actually reading the posts in this thread), swapping equipment in space would not be available. This only applies to weapons, and then only with time delays, quantity, and cost limitations.

[Edited on 2-27-2008 by Vice]

[Jeremy]

...

Apparently I missed that one.

[Vice]

Until we can test ourselves...

You know, that's a good idea. I'll likely put together a replacement EXE for a test build so you can try it out, then let me know what you think. I'll set the timers as indicated previously, then see if you like/dislike the change and what kind of time delay changes should be applied.

[Edited on 2-27-2008 by Vice]

[tha_rami]

Woot! I had a good idea!

[Nigel_Strange]

Well, if it's just for the weapons, then I see no point to it at all. I already have the best weapons. Why would I swap them for anything? You can already cycle the missiles so you don't accidentally let a torp fly too close to the station, so what's the point?

I only wanted a mod to allow me to carry extra equipment so I wouldn't have to "plan" to run out of fuel in order to get any use from the fuel converter. Or I wouldn't have to "plan" to have to analyze cargo after blowing up an enemy, but without having to "plan" to have weapon relays or shield boosts or mining beams. Seems like you'd want all this stuff on your ship without the luxury of a nearby station, and if you have to plan your life before leaving the station, you're not allowing yourself to benefit from the unexpected.

[Vice]

Here is the test build. It may replace your desktop icon for the game with a gray square, that is normal and indicates a test build. Simply run the original installer to restore the previous build. Please evaluate it in combat extensively before posting comments about it, either for or against. In station transfer speed remains the same, in-space transfer speed will take a long time and can be effected by the skill of your crew. Download link:

http://www.starwraith.com/EvochronRenegades.zip

Simply unzip these files and place them in the game's folder (replaces the EvochronRenegades.exe file and text.dat file).

[Edited on 2-27-2008 by Vice]

[MMaggio]

I know I promised not to comment on this again....BUT....
If having a crewmember or more influencing the speed at which this "miraculous weapons transfer in space", then it will only make richer, older players even harder to beat in MP as they have the necessary rescources to finance it. On the other hand, if it takes longer to make the swap in space than in a station, what's the point?
The game is lopsided enough as it is in MP as newbies can't compete with the more powerful ships and weapons that older players have. Next thing you know, you'll be setting up "classes" in MP.

[Coma]

B nuf said

[Pariah]

Originally posted by MMaggio
I know I promised not to comment on this again....BUT....
If having a crewmember or more influencing the speed at which this "miraculous weapons transfer in space", then it will only make richer, older players even harder to beat in MP as they have the necessary rescources to finance it. On the other hand, if it takes longer to make the swap in space than in a station, what's the point?
The game is lopsided enough as it is in MP as newbies can't compete with the more powerful ships and weapons that older players have. Next thing you know, you'll be setting up "classes" in MP.

I don't understand the fixation on judging the game based on balance between wealthy and poor players. Everyone is poor and ill equipped when they start out. One of the points of playing is to make money and acquire better frames and equipment.

If you look at any game part of the general design is acquiring power as you advance. So what if a newbie can't beat a vet in MP? The vet spent countless hours earning their money and exploring systems to find cool equipment... that should count for something.

I could care less if this change is implemented. I'd say by the controversy that it would be better to skip it for now. If there are scores of people wanting this they should vote or pipe up.

To Vice.... I wonder what would have happened if you had just made the change and never said anything. I suspect there would have been very little fallout in the forums (if any).



[Edited on 2-27-2008 by Pariah]

[Vice]

Everyone is poor and ill equipped when they start out. One of the points of playing is to make money and acquire better frames and equipment.

Agreed, wanting new players to equally (or even mostly) compete with veterans leaves little incentive to advance at all in a game. It's a weak argument against the idea, a few others are far more convincing (which I'll list below).

To Vice.... I wonder what would have happened if you had just made the change and never said anything. I suspect there would have been very little fallout in the forums (if any).

Maybe, but it's an important and significant enough of a change to review before requiring it. This and the license change were two that have been on my concept list for a long time and while there had been previous discussions about them, they're both not changes I wanted to add without some final detailed analysis about any potential benefits and/or drawbacks. When you also consider that these did not have the same kind of near unanimous support that many other improvements and changes often have, it's important to review them carefully before implementing them. And I generally prefer to share that review process with the players.

With that said:

Some of the points on the 'con' side were really weak (some not even related, lol), but having reviewed the thread and the feedback repeatedly, I am convinced it should probably not be added at this time for these following few (but convincing) reasons coupled with the waning interest and changing opinions:

- Reduces current focus on risk taking station docking, essentially lowering one challenge element beyond the scope of what many players are willing to tolerate.

- Benefits are reduced to less than reasonably useful when the time delay is high enough to keep station docking the most beneficial method of moving weapons from the cargo bay to hardpoints.

- The pre-planning involved with only the limit of default hardpoints is preferred by many players.

So unless the testing of the version I posted previously changes minds, I'll likely put this one to rest. If anyone asks about it, we can refer them to this now massive (1000 views, lol) debate/discussion. Still open to further comments on it, once those interested have tried the test version with this feature added.

[Edited on 2-27-2008 by Vice]

[Berdyon]

1000 views, lol

Yeah, about that, you often have these massive discussions here? I like it!

[Berdyon]

Anyone got any testing experience they want to share here?

[Edited on 2-27-2008 by Berdyon]

[tha_rami]

No, I haven't tested yet. I'm still trying to get the game to run on Ubuntu - my Vista partition has crashed recently. No luck as of yet.

I had this realisation. Since the balance between new players and vets apparently doesn't matter, what if the whole thing would be only available if you've get a "Weapon Loading" equipment item?