Something isn't right since the update?

Ghost · Post by **Ghost** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:45 pm

Dear Vice,

Sky king and I ran an experiment using Chimera's with fusion and Ice Spear.
We were at 400 meters and at the count of 3 we blasted each other with Ice Spear cannons only. I destroyed him and I only had 16% hull damage. We then used our fusion / icespear cannon . Again I destroyed him and but only had 46% hull damage.
We did this experiment 4 times with me always winning and similar results?
Sky king said that Flash and him did the same thing at 350 meters with identical weapons but different ships and Flash (Chimera) destroyed him everytime (Shrife) while suffering minimal damage?
Like us, they both had their sheilds +5/-5 settings like we did. Just curious!

Viper · Post by **Viper** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:50 pm

I think that if you provide a bit more info, that would be helpful to Vice in determining whether there's something wrong. Think of which ships you guys were using, what kind of equipment you all used (for example a shield recharger mounted on just one of you would definitely make a difference, same with say a shield boost multiplier).

Flash · Post by **Flash** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:54 pm

Capt Cronic and I did the exact same experiment but verified equal equipment and setup. the only difference was frame rate and ping. We both died at the same instant.

Post by **Vice** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:15 pm

Sky king and I ran an experiment using Chimera's with fusion and Ice Spear.
We were at 400 meters and at the count of 3 we blasted each other with Ice Spear cannons only. I destroyed him and I only had 16% hull damage. We then used our fusion / icespear cannon . Again I destroyed him and but only had 46% hull damage.
We did this experiment 4 times with me always winning and similar results?
Sky king said that Flash and him did the same thing at 350 meters with identical weapons but different ships and Flash (Chimera) destroyed him everytime (Shrife) while suffering minimal damage?
Like us, they both had their sheilds +5/-5 settings like we did. Just curious!

Someone was probably using different settings or configuration. You did not specify what equipment loadout each one of you was using, which can make a big difference. Firing modes, crews (where applicable), and firing methods can also make a difference. So can momentary loss of MDTS tracking. Had everything been truly aligned, you probably would have experienced the same results as Flash and Capt Cronic.

Ghost · Post by **Ghost** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:25 pm

Dear Vice,

We had identical:

1. No crews
2 . Chimera's
3. Fusion/ Ice Spear
4. Shields +5/-5
5. No missiles fired

I use Saitek he used wingman extreme 3d pro.
Maybe its the joystick firing rate?
Thanks Flash for your input!

Dingo · Post by **Dingo** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:55 pm

From post: 122627, Topic: tid=8284, author=Ghost wrote: We had identical:

1. No crews
2 . Chimera's
3. Fusion/ Ice Spear
4. Shields +5/-5
5. No missiles fired

I use Saitek he used wingman extreme 3d pro.
Maybe its the joystick firing rate?
Thanks Flash for your input!

Yes but did you both have

1. heat sinks
2. cannon relays
3. shield rechargers

would make a big difference if you didnt match on those too.

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:09 pm

Also class of Shield Booster can make a huge difference!.......

Post by **Vice** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:35 pm

Dear Vice,

We had identical:

1. No crews
2 . Chimera's
3. Fusion/ Ice Spear
4. Shields +5/-5
5. No missiles fired

I use Saitek he used wingman extreme 3d pro.
Maybe its the joystick firing rate?
Thanks Flash for your input!

Again, and as the others pointed out, you have not specified the other ship and weapon equipment configuration options which have a big impact. Shield boosters, cannon relays, cannon heatsinks, shield rechargers, etc, can all effect how much damage is inflicted, deflected, and repaired. Even repair devices can make enough of a difference to allow one player to survive longer than another in that kind of scenario. It isn't just about which guns and ship frames you are using.

And you also have to take into account who might start firing slightly ahead of the other, who gets knocked out of MDTS lock more, who might sustain subsystem damage first (depleting weapon firing capability), etc.

Star King · Post by **Star King** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:58 am

First and foremost thank you all for answering or giving advice. It is truly appreciated.

I have :

1. heat sinks
2. cannon relays
3. shield rechargers

I can't speak for Ghost but my ship is loaded.

[Edited on 12-25-2008 by Star King]

Star King · Post by **Star King** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:05 pm

Dear Vice and EM Buddies,

Thank you for your help! I figured out it is was my ATI graphic drivers. I removed the ATI catalyst driver and ran my ATI 4300 on the basic drivers and saw a huge improvement with my fire power and sheilding.
Thanks Vice, Flash, Maarschalk, Capt. Cronic and Ghost.
I over-looked the fact that I downloaded the new ATI Catalyst drivers just before I downloaded the new EM upgrade so that blinded me on the huge reduction of performance. Maarschalk and I still have slow frame rates again he (like me) is using an older ATI graphics card.

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:06 pm

My frame rate is mostly between 40 and 47, When there is not much going on Graphics wise in some systems my frame rate goes up to between 50-57 and my fire power and shielding works much better!;)

Star King · Post by **Star King** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:46 am

My frame rate jumped to 69 / 78 after fixing my PC but I have to PVP to prove it out!

[Edited on 12-25-2008 by Star King]

Post by **Vice** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:27 am

My frame rate is mostly between 40 and 47, When there is not much going on Graphics wise in some systems my frame rate goes up to between 50-57 and my fire power and shielding works much better!

Doesn't really matter in those ranges, the server will calibrate the final result between you and your opponent. Even if your system is really fast at one point and seems to be cycling things faster/better due to skipping/stuttering with changes in FPS, the server will only let a fixed/calibrated rate of fire through. So it's calibrated on the server side of things, regardless of what your system is doing.

Now if you had a system that was so slow that it couldn't even render enough frames to keep up with the firing rate of your cannon and/or gamestate updates, outbound and inbound details could be missed. You might see things like getting destroyed when it only seemed like your opponent fired half as many shots. That's because they actually fired enough to destroy you, but because your system is so far behind in scene/frame updates, you don't see those details because they are happening between refresh updates. And if your system fails to keep up with the -minimum- resource needs of the game for gamestate data exchange, these problems could put you at a disadvantage (try playing at 10-15 frames per second in any multiplayer game for example).

Ideally, your system should maintain at least 20 fps for keeping up with gamestate activity and input response. If your system can't maintain that, then consider reducing details until it can. The game will be more responsive (simply because it's sampling input from you that many more times per second) and what you're seeing on the screen will be keeping up with what's going on in the game's universe better.

Star King · Post by **Star King** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:36 am

Thanks for your help!
I appreciate you looking into this.

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:02 pm

Thanks Vice for the explanation. There still seems to be something wrong with the new update. Like many Older pilots with older systems seems to be reporting problems and loses in PvPs. It seems that Newer players with the latest technology(SSD for example) systems have an advantage over Older veteran players who have Older computer systems.
So if I compare reported Kills in PvP versus the skills and Newest overal computer systems used. The Players with the latest technology and overall better computer systems have the most Kills thus advantage.

I myself experience the effect of this! From my perspective my Evoch-E is as agile and fast as Flashes Chimera, I can not keep up with him even using afterburners! Now from Flashes perspective his Chimera is slow compared to if he was flying an Evoch-E instead of a Chimera. And he seems to be able in his Chimera to keep up with my Evoch-E. This is just one example. The same with fire power, shields .....etc.....Every one with a better overall Computer system than mine is moving faster, has faster fire power, faster shield regeneration, faster repair time....etc.....before the update this was less obvious and less of a problem still people with a better overall system had a slight advantage but less then now!...

Post by **Marvin** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:23 pm

Blame it on Mother Nature, Maars. The old must always make way for the new ... it's the cycle of life.

Rubber Chicken · Post by **Rubber Chicken** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:36 pm

I've PvP'd many times with Flash this weekend. We've both won and lost verses each other. I was using an Evoch-E. Flash however was testing both ends of the spectrum and was trading back and forth between a Chimera and a Ferret.

There's been times I've taken hits that barely hurt and times I've nearly been blown to smithereens in one pass. Vice-versa for Flash. I also flew against many other pilots with many different flying styles this weekend. The damage dealt/recieved results and ship manueverability/speed performance have all been consistent. Pilots have had to develop new tricks/techniques on the fly in order to be victrious over each other in PvP since the update. The days of parking in front of your enemy and punching it out are over.

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:51 pm

From post: 122890, Topic: tid=8284, author=Rubber Chicken wrote:I've PvP'd many times with Flash this weekend. We've both won and lost verses each other. I was using an Evoch-E. Flash however was testing both ends of the spectrum and was trading back and forth between a Chimera and a Ferret.

There's been times I've taken hits that barely hurt and times I've nearly been blown to smithereens in one pass. Vice-versa for Flash. I also flew against many other pilots with many different flying styles this weekend. The damage dealt/recieved results and ship manueverability/speed performance have all been consistent. Pilots have had to develop new tricks/techniques on the fly in order to be victrious over each other in PvP since the update. The days of parking in front of your enemy and punching it out are over.

Looking at your System specs wich is 2 years old compared to mine which is almost 8 years old, makes a difference. And parking in front of your enemy and punching it out has always been a bad idea unless the enemy pilot was online but afk! So comparing your specs to Flash's there is a difference but not as much as mine compared to Flash's!....

Rubber Chicken · Post by **Rubber Chicken** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 9:10 pm

Yes true Maars, but keep im mind I have recently played MANY PvP matches with as many pilots as I could including Sky King who seems to have one of the least performance PC's here. He can tell you that many of those matches have been very close.

Since it seems that I have one of the most 'Middle of the Road' setups posted, Perhaps Vice would be interested in Pairing up different players with different specs and observing what happens?

I am completely willing to help get down to the matter of whether or not this update has given an unfair advantage to certain players. As I do not want such a reputation if that is the case for the current success myself and other pilots are enjoying.

If it does however turn out that the update is sound along will our combat tactics, then I guess some of the most revered veterans in EM will have to go back to the drawing board....

[Edited on 1-8-2012 by Rubber Chicken]

Post by **Vice** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:18 pm

I'll cover details below and answer questions/concerns directly:

I'll Try to Explain. I'm Engaging another Pilot, I Have Him RED, My Hull is a 45+ % Then I'M DESTROYED!. It seems like My Opponent Hits Me With CANNONS/MISSILES that Registered In Game But Not to Me, Personally, as I Saw NO CANNON/MISSLILE Fire, I Just Was DESTROYED.

This is Happening OFTEN were it seems the Game FREEZES for Me While My Opponent is Still Able to Fire until I'm Destroyed.

What you are describing there sounds more connection related rather than game related (although the symptom could be a result of the increased precision in 1.728). There is fixed packet precision with build 1.728 as opposed to 1.708. What that means is the game no longer lets players with slower internet connections miss gamestate packets or even slow down with them since that would impact gameplay fairness with players using faster connections. So what may be happening with your setup is your system/connection is 'catching up' with a burst of packets/gamestate data it failed to process fast enough earlier. This could be caused by below minimum system performance, an intermittent connection on your end, a slow connection, or an interfered connection.

My suggestions for troubleshooting the problem would be to make sure your system meets the minimum requirements stated for the game, make sure nothing else is running in the background that would reduce your system's performance, check your internet connection online with a speed utility to make sure it is performing above the minimums required, verify no one else is using your internet connection for other activities while you are playing online, and monitor your framerate and ping performance to make sure both are within tolerances. This will help prevent missed and delayed gamestate data.

With the New MDTS Upgrade/Alignment does this Use the Slower Computers Specs/FPS/PING or the Higher Ones of the 2 Players?

Neither, both are locked in at a fixed rate. The slower system, if too slow (or using a too slow/delayed internet connection), risks missing gamestate data that the faster player may see due to their higher framerate and better capturing/updating of gamestate data.

I Have Found that with Players Using Comparable Systems to Mine this Does Not Occour.

This would further reinforce the possibility it is entirely connection related for you.

Can Ver. 1.708 Still Be Used in MP?

No, since this would result in putting the 'unfair' MDTS and gamestate conditions of the older build back in place.

Although since downloading this upgrade, I have never been hit with invisible fire (like InkMike) this upgrade version seems to be more graphic draining.

That would technically be an impossibility since the only changes in this update are MDTS accuracy and packet precision for fair gameplay across a range of FPS and ping conditions. Nothing has been done to the graphics engine, media, or rendering systems. So in terms of graphics performance, things should be identical to the way they were before.

My only suggestion is improving Voice chat function (sometimes hard to hear).
Does voice chat drain your PC resources I have a six year old XP PC system?

Voice chat can often be improved by changing mic location/sensitivity. Is/was there a particular player you had trouble understanding? Or were they having trouble understanding you? Or both? The voice chat does add a slightly higher memory load when you are using it, but the effect should be pretty negligible. If a system is pretty slow, it can result in a choppy effect if it can't keep up with the voice chat system. Generally, the faster the computer, the better voice chat will perform and sound.

There still seems to be something wrong with the new update. Like many Older pilots with older systems seems to be reporting problems and loses in PvPs.

I am monitoring results and conditions continually (even participating in matches myself). Please always list the names of the pilots you are referring to (you can send me the list privately if you wish) so I can specifically track and review those pilot's packet track records to find out how well/badly they and their systems did. So far, what I've been observing has been pretty well locked in for consistency and accuracy. Unlike what I had discovered with 1.708 when a few players had reported a specific problem.

It seems that Newer players with the latest technology(SSD for example)

SSD's are hard drives, so those would only impact load times and the game's media access. They wouldn't (can't really) be effecting runtime gameplay.

systems have an advantage over Older veteran players who have Older computer systems.
So if I compare reported Kills in PvP versus the skills and Newest overal computer systems used. The Players with the latest technology and overall better computer systems have the most Kills thus advantage.

It used to be that players with slower/older systems were at an unfair advantage (and the problem was traced down to a calculation issue with the MDTS, potentially effected by either FPS or ping). However, now that things are synchronized, the slower/older systems are no longer at an advantage. And the faster systems are now generally running pretty much just like they were before. This could result in what appears to be a significant shift in game behavior, even though it's just an alignment of gamestate conditions and consistency. As I recall, one of the players who had previously reported a problem with 1.708 and older builds was Flash. Some of his shots were not registering and he was at a disadvantage when up against a player with a slower system as a result. Now it appears that disadvantage is gone, and with around 100% locked on player-to-player shots getting through on both ends, his kill ratio has gone up to where it should be (based on the results of shots fired, shots hit, MDTS status, angles, speeds, and flight patterns).

Again, it would help if specifics are provided. I would not be surprised at all if a few players with really slow systems (down into the teens and low 20's for fps) are at some disadvantage compared to players with higher framerates since the faster systems see more things happening on the screen than the others and player input to system reaction times are lower due to the faster input update rates. And with faster updates and more reactive response, it can give players with faster machines a slight advantage in any multiplayer game. But at the same time, I have been observing players running at around 30-40 fps consistently beating and matching results against players in the 50-70 fps range. And their flight trajectories/patterns are backing up those results as being the tactics necessary to win PvP battles more often (ie drift arcs, speed, angled attacks, etc).

I will continue to monitor and watch these things and if you spot a specific problem, please do report then to me (e-mail is best and fastest).

I myself experience the effect of this! From my perspective my Evoch-E is as agile and fast as Flashes Chimera, I can not keep up with him even using afterburners! Now from Flashes perspective his Chimera is slow compared to if he was flying an Evoch-E instead of a Chimera. And he seems to be able in his Chimera to keep up with my Evoch-E. This is just one example. The same with fire power, shields .....etc.....Every one with a better overall Computer system than mine is moving faster, has faster fire power, faster shield regeneration, faster repair time....etc.....before the update this was less obvious and less of a problem still people with a better overall system had a slight advantage but less then now!...

Well, none of those systems have been touched. They are identical to 1.708. So I couldn't begin to explain such a change as that if that's what you are encountering. Perhaps it might be more related to cargo/weight and the use of afterburner boosters? Or maybe flash is using high drift velocities that aren't getting picked up by your target status MFD? Try drag racing him a few times with/without afterburner along the same exact heading and pitch to determine what, if any, difference there may be.

There's been times I've taken hits that barely hurt and times I've nearly been blown to smithereens in one pass. Vice-versa for Flash. I also flew against many other pilots with many different flying styles this weekend. The damage dealt/recieved results and ship manueverability/speed performance have all been consistent. Pilots have had to develop new tricks/techniques on the fly in order to be victrious over each other in PvP since the update. The days of parking in front of your enemy and punching it out are over.

That sounds like exactly what I've been observing over the last few weeks. In fact, one particular pilot (not me) seems to have mastered a deadly high speed pass where they are flying in and opening fire as soon as they reach weapon range. They fly so fast and at such a precise drift arc that by the time their target even starts to turn to stay aligned in MDTS range against them, the attacking pilot passes by them and a massive array of particle weapon fire hits as they pass by. This results is a slew of weapon impacts against the target, often destroying them if they are in a weakened condition. It has proven to be a very effective technique considering the results. Movement and use of agility are now pretty critical factors.

KingArthur · Post by **KingArthur** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:30 pm

Thanks VICE. Seems some "Re-Training" on My Part is Required as it Seems there is No Game Issue.

SeeJay · Post by **SeeJay** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:44 pm

I'm having problems with the menus since the last update.

The screen "flashes" when clicking on any buttons. It takes many clicks to get in to the
Available Contracts list. Many times in there it skips every 2nd contract and shows only 1, 3, 5...
I also "lost" my Hat function for head movement. (Reconfigured to get it back).

I tried in SP to see if it was server related but got the same results there.

I have not changed anything on my system/internet connection.

Really weird stuff!

Reaver 1 · Post by **Reaver 1** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:11 am

From post: 122903, Topic: tid=8284, author=KingArthur wrote: Targeting, specificaly "CANNONS ONLY" Fire, shows a MARKED Increase in Number of Hits, especially at Range.

A Much Welcome Improvement to the MDTS System.

This Applies to Both AI's ans PvP.

[LL]King Arthur-Personal

The downside to the increased hit rate is that I am finding that the more agile ships with weaker hulls (i.e. Evoch frames) are now less appealing as a PvP platform. Before you had a ship that while it couldn't take a hit well at least could maneuver around to avoid fire. By increasing the hit rates through an improved MDTS means that maneuvering no longer can save you. I am experiencing mixed emotions about the MDTS upgrade.

On the up side, AI's are far more like shooting fish in a barrel. Which now that I think of it is also a slight down side as the AI challenge has diminished somewhat.

This is the first upgrade that I have had mixed emotions about.

Post by **Vice** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:37 am

The downside to the increased hit rate is that I am finding that the more agile ships with weaker hulls (i.e. Evoch frames) are now less appealing as a PvP platform. Before you had a ship that while it couldn't take a hit well at least could maneuver around to avoid fire. By increasing the hit rates through an improved MDTS means that maneuvering no longer can save you. I am experiencing mixed emotions about the MDTS upgrade.

That could certainly be the case for players just flying in and performing joust passes. But for a number of times recently, players flying lighter ships (even down to the Ferret) have balanced a long range cannon with staying at the edge of range with wide drift arcs effectively (which are much easier to set up and adjust at speed in the lighter frames), giving them weapon hits early and before their opponent can reach them (sometimes making a pass with little or no damage to themselves, depending on how aggressive their target is coming in at full speed or on afterburner). Before, it was just question of whether or not your shots would ever hit due to the calculation discrepency. But now, with shots hitting consistently, it's now a delicate balance of getting more range, firing at the right time, maintaining a drift arc/angle, and managing pre-planned approaches (faster). So on the contrary, maneuverability and speed now seem more important than ever. But it certainly depends on your flying and fighting style.

Reaver 1 · Post by **Reaver 1** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:10 am

Roger.

I guess I am going back to flight school then