How would you like to see Fulcrum torpedoes changed (revised poll based on feedback)?

[Vice]

Based on discussions in the two threads, I'm posting a new poll with some of the new options several players indicated they would like. Please vote for the one you would prefer -most-, then if there are other changes or comments you'd like to discuss, post those in a reply.

While all opinions will be considered, I will also be prioritizing comments based on objectivity and detail. Subjective comments, especially vague ones (ie 'this is good' or 'this is bad') won't carry much weight without specific objective details/examples and consideration of other factors/players.

[Maarschalk]

Still other.

I think the 30 seconds delay with an input safety code as I suggested in the previous poll is the best option and leave everything else as it is!. The more I have thought about this it brings to mind that in 30 seconds from the firing sequence the location of the ships and players have changed and moved so it becomes very hard to use effectively as an annoyance or abuse it! While still being a viable option in Single play or Multiplay when you are swarmed by hostiles. Requiring impact for detonation would make it very hard to use if the Fulcrum does not have a tracking system to hit the intended target! Also leave the option for the Server Operator to bann the Abuser and the option to prevent the Firing of Fulcrums on the Server.....

[soulsacrifice]

I don't like the idea of them requiring impact because it will make fulcrams absolutely useless against anything but capital ships. Not really worth the price if there's only one thing you can really do with them. Plus, realistically speaking that would be a really bad nuke if it didn't detonate just because it missed your target by a few meters.

I would prefer, if changes have to be made, for the damage to be reduced because it would take more skill to use them but they would still be the lethal weapon they're supposed to be. I'd even suggest a customizable detonation timer to increase the amount of skill it takes to hit a target (with a minimum time so there is still fair warning to anyone in range).

[Munshine]

I don't like it but option 1 is the only way to fix finally this issue.

However please take into consideration for a future update the new gameplay mechanics I described in the other topic that I think would introduce more fun gameplay.

[Edited on 12-25-2012 by Munshine]

[Vice]

Forgot to include the 'arm' timer option as well, we'll have to include that as a vote option in replies. It's an option as well, if enough players think it would provide sufficient time to reach escape distance. But one problem that would surface with is the firing player could spend that 30-seconds chasing after the player(s) they are trying to annoy.

[zex]

In light of the new poll, I am voting "no change".

These are just some of the reasons:

1) Fulcrum torps are the only viable weapon to deal with people who remain cloaked while destroying bases.

2) Fulcrum torps are the only viable weapon to deal with people who want to take over territory by doing contracts and hiding inside the station lobby when somebody comes to stop them.

3) Fulcrum torps are a great weapon to use when you want to discourage 5 members of a faction from trying to attack you at once.

4) I really do not see people abusing fulcrum torpedoes, and think that there are some people who want everyone to play the game the way that they want it to be played. If this is really just about suicide reloading, there are plenty of ways to deal with that without changing the fulcrum torpedoes.

I will reiterate my opinion that save-on-launch (or even better, just a partial save of missle hardpoint contents, if that is possible) is a better option for dealing with the alleged suicide/reload spam that caused this topic to surface.

[edit: grammar correction]

[Edited on 12-26-2012 by zex]

[-splosives-]

All other solutions than to remove it are just compromises that don't make up for the fact that the FT is just not a good element in the game.
Seriously, it serves no purpose other than to make things easier, more annoying and it totally breaks the game play.
Some people argue that they want it for trading goods. I say there's plenty of goods to trade out there that give you even more profit.
We don't need the FT in this game, and I'm almost sure it will be a better game without them.

[-splosives-]

In light of the new poll, I am voting "no change".

These are just some of the reasons:

1) Fulcrum torps are the only viable weapon to deal with people who remained cloaked while destroying bases.

2) Fulcrum torps are the only viable weapon to deal with people who want to take over territory by doing contracts and hiding inside the station lobby when somebody comes to stop them.

3) Fulcrum torps are a great weapon to use when you want to discourage 5 members of a faction from trying to attack you at once.

4) I really do not see people abusing fulcrum torpedoes, and think that there are some people who want everyone to play the game the way that they want it to be played. If this is really just about suicide reloading, there are plenty of ways to deal with that without changing the fulcrum torpedoes.

I will reiterate my opinion that save-on-launch (or even better, just a partial save of missle hardpoint contents, if that is possible) is a better option for dealing with the alleged suicide/reload spam that caused this topic to surface.

You're thinking too much about your own situation, rather than thinking about the game itself.
I would also suffer these conditions, but I don't mind. I still think the game will be more fun without them, even if I can't stop a station detonation (You can totally see a cloaked person't engines, by the way), or kill someone inside a station (what are they going to do inside anyway?).
You most likely just like the FT's because the vonari are the ones that make use of it the most (and generally ruining our fun with it).

[zex]

You most likely just like the FT's because the vonari are the ones that make use of it the most (and generally ruining our fun with it).

Times you've killed me with an FT: 1
Times I've killed you with an FT: 0

I enumerated my reasons for liking torpedoes, ruining your fun is not one of them.

[polyvinyl_zer0k]

It's a little disappointing to hear that auto-save on launch isn't an option as I think this would be the simplest, least intrusive option (from a gameplay standpoint) but I understand that if it causes other issues it can't be considered.

Might it be possible to introduce a second type of fulcrum? First type would be regular fulcrums that initiate an auto-save on launch -- Good for PVP but can't be used during contracts. The second would be a "capship killer" fulcrum that only detonates after impacting the hull of (or getting close enough to) a capship. This would keep both sides happy -- Those that want fulcs to do contracts with, and those who want fulcs to PVP with.

I am starting to like the arm-time option. This might even add another dimension to the fight.

If I want to launch this fulcrum I'm going to have to spend 30 seconds arming it. In that 30 seconds my opponent has a chance to try and hunt me down and kill me before the launch sequence is complete. I'd have no problem with how powerful the fulcrum is right now as long as I have a chance to counter that pilot's actions by striking first while they're waiting for it to arm.

Optional Idea?:
During the launch sequence your ship uses energy to charge and arm the fulcrum. Over the course of 30 seconds your ship's energy is slowly drained leaving you with little to no power near the end of the launch. You just fired a fulcrum and now you're a sitting duck until your energy reserves are replenished. I think this would keep the fulcrums single-player uses intact but require pilots to actually think about how they're going to use the fulcrum in multiplayer.

Side Note: Vice, thank you for taking time out of your holiday season to address these issues. Not many game developers would post polls about this issue (let alone even read the forum) on Christmas day. You rock.

[Flash]

I say Save On Launch

[-splosives-]

You most likely just like the FT's because the vonari are the ones that make use of it the most (and generally ruining our fun with it).

Times you've killed me with an FT: 1
Times I've killed you with an FT: 0

I enumerated my reasons for liking torpedoes, ruining your fun is not one of them.

Wasn't talking about you, just clan [V] entirely.
I used a fulcrum, but that doesn't mean I liked doing so.
I just used it because I know that clan [V] guys always use them on me.

[polyvinyl_zer0k]

1) Fulcrum torps are the only viable weapon to deal with people who remain cloaked while destroying bases.

Easy way to fix this problem. Make it so you can't det a station while cloaked.

2) Fulcrum torps are the only viable weapon to deal with people who want to take over territory by doing contracts and hiding inside the station lobby when somebody comes to stop them.

If they're hiding in the station they aren't doing contracts. If they accept a contract jump with them to the waypoint and kill them.

3) Fulcrum torps are a great weapon to use when you want to discourage 5 members of a faction from trying to attack you at once.

Don't start a clan war with a clan 5 times the size of your own if this is your concern. This is why FT's are breaking multiplayer and clan wars. You don't have to even concern yourself with the fact that you're outnumbered because you have a magic button that makes everyone go boom. I can't imagine getting any sort of satisfaction out of playing this way.

4) I really do not see people abusing fulcrum torpedoes, and think that there are some people who want everyone to play the game the way that they want it to be played. If this is really just about suicide reloading, there are plenty of ways to deal with that without changing the fulcrum torpedoes.

The irony in this statement made me laugh. As I said in the other thread, the only people I see claiming that fulcrums are OK, as is, are the people who haven't been around long enough (of PVP often enough) to be affected by their misuses, or they're the people who like to spam launch them and use them as an equalizer. Here's an idea: Why don't we just get rid of all weapons in game and force everyone to kill each other via fulcrum. THAT would even the playing field.

It amazes me that this topic has gone from a single thread to 3 threads in less than 2 days and the people who oppose the changes are claiming that it's only a few people who want the game changed to suite their own play style. By the looks of it there are a bunch of people who want to see things changed and only a few people who are fine with the way they are.

EDIT: Repeated edits to fix grammar.

[Edited on 12-26-2012 by polyvinyl_zer0k]

[Flash]

What about a Fulcrum Anti-Missle.

[zex]

You most likely just like the FT's because the vonari are the ones that make use of it the most (and generally ruining our fun with it).

Times you've killed me with an FT: 1
Times I've killed you with an FT: 0

I enumerated my reasons for liking torpedoes, ruining your fun is not one of them.

Wasn't talking about you, just clan [V] entirely.
I used a fulcrum, but that doesn't mean I liked doing so.
I just used it because I know that clan [V] guys always use them on me.

I actually thought that it was a really good use of an FT too.

Anyway - I totally see your point. I don't like instakills any more than you do. You are right that I can only see it from my perspective - I have only had one encounter with a suicide bomber and it was rather short-lived. I mentioned before that I couldn't imagine being dogged for an hour by someone respawning with a full hold of FTs.

I just wanted to list my concerns about removing them completely. I won't be upset by their removal, but it will make dealing with cloaked detonations next to impossible.. and I'll have to deal with fighting people who like to enter station and repair over and over again... I guess it will eventually force everyone to employ these "tactics"

[Busch]

I opted for no changes, reserving the option for the arming sequence to be considered viable for inclusion in the next gen of FT's. I like PVZK's suggestion for two FT types as well - 1 regular, 1 extra-crispy (Cap ship killers). And, I like the idea of the launching-ship power drain, maybe co-incidental to the arming timer as suggested; some kind of targeting ID required pre-launch. for both (?). Some thing like this option may satisfy the Traders, PvP'ers, and Combat Pilots. On several occassions I've ridden TG to Bro Gorf, and watched a true FT artist render scores of Vonari Cap ships and F/I/B's as moot points (WMD casualties - a smoking ruins). Personal witness to their combat viability and efficiency - still. It does take practise in order to hone the skill of their utility, sorta like building that "muscle memory" thru repetition. If you don't like them, don't use them. But don't toss the baby out with the bath water.

[zex]

4) I really do not see people abusing fulcrum torpedoes, and think that there are some people who want everyone to play the game the way that they want it to be played. If this is really just about suicide reloading, there are plenty of ways to deal with that without changing the fulcrum torpedoes.

The irony in this statement made me laugh. As I said in the other thread, the only people I see claiming that fulcrums are OK, as is, are the people who haven't been around long enough (of PVP often enough) to be affected by their misuses, or they're the people who like to spam launch them and use them as an equalizer. Here's an idea: Why don't we just get rid of all weapons in game and force everyone to kill each other via fulcrum. THAT would even the playing field.

It amazes me that this topic has gone from a single thread to 3 threads in less than 2 days and the people who oppose the changes are claiming that it's only a few people who want the game changed to suite their own play style. By the looks of it there are a bunch of people who want to see things changed and only a few people who are fine with the way they are.

EDIT: Repeated edits to fix grammar.

[Edited on 12-26-2012 by polyvinyl_zer0k]

It amazes me that you think I oppose "the changes" when I stated that I only voted for no change because auto-save was taken off the table. I thought we were in agreement that this was the best option. You seem to have changed your opinion at some point between your last two posts.

[Vice]

If I want to launch this fulcrum I'm going to have to spend 30 seconds arming it. In that 30 seconds my opponent has a chance to try and hunt me down and kill me before the launch sequence is complete. I'd have no problem with how powerful the fulcrum is right now as long as I have a chance to counter that pilot's actions by striking first while they're waiting for it to arm.

Interesting. The only technical requirement the game would need to handle that counter-operation for the player is the notification that the weapon has been armed. Any players will then know they have the 30 second window to take action and can try to either escape to destroy the player who armed the weapon. Then if we combine that function with the requirement that no other fulcrum torpedo could be armed by that player until the first one at least fires, it would help hold down the spam-fire issue also.

Great discussion and debate You guys have already got me drafting a few ideas in my head on ways to approach a couple of these options. The arming sequence has a lot of appeal to me since it could potentially help remedy two issues at once in a functionally purposeful and beneficial way.

[Busch]

YES!!!!!

[zex]

Thanks for listening to us Vice, you're of a rare breed!

[KingArthur]

ONLY ALLOW AN FT TO BE FIRED IF A SD IN EMPLOYED. I Find the Use of FT's to Combat SD's the ONLY REASONABLE USE FOR THEM.

I Believe A "30 Second ARMING SYSTEM" Could Be the Difference Between SAVING a STATION or LOSING IT.













[Edited on 12-26-2012 by KingArthur]

[Vonari translatorial]

You most likely just like the FT's because the vonari are the ones that make use of it the most (and generally ruining our fun with it).

That have been a joke, and in poor taste I might add.




[Edited on 12-26-2012 by Vonari translatorial]

[KingArthur]

I VOTE OTHER.

FT's Could Be LINKED to an SD's TIMER. When an SD in ENGAGED in a SYSTEM a TIMER WILL APPEAR On Your Screen For "FT USE" If You Are Unable to FIRE the FT before the STATION IS DESTROYED it Really isn't any Good for Anything Else.

I'd Like to Say that I Believe it's only a SMALL "ELEMENT" Of Players that ABUSE FT's. They Jump in During a Contract, Fire a Couple FT's and Destroy YOU and THEMSELVES AS WELL.

Most Players, I believe, Use FT's as I ALSO Believe they Were INTENDED TO BE USED. TO STOP A STATION DETONATION.

If WE Start REMOVING Elements of the Game that have Been LONG AVAILABLE and IN USE the Game LESSONS that Little bit.

What About PROX MINES? Some "ELEMENTS" Believe it's "FUN" To Litter a GATE EXIT with Them So as a Pilot EXITS the GATE they are DESTROYED.

I Believe NO MATTER WHAT IS DONE There will ALWAYS be Those Who Will TRY TO CIRCUMVENT The Weapons Intended Use and Use it in a Way NOT IN KEEPING with The GAME.

I Also Believe That What I've Proposed, an FT ONLY BECOMES "ACTIVE" IF AN SD IS DETECTED IN A SYSTEM Would Be the EASIEST Way to Stop this Weapons MISUSE.








[Edited on 12-26-2012 by KingArthur]

[Dagran]

You really don't need a torpedo to take out a pilot destroying a station. You just need to interrupt him by making him move and that already cancels the timer, then kill the pilot. Your scenario is valid against a stealth detonation.

[KingArthur]

With a SD a Pilot Can MANUVEER within 2000m of the DETONATION POINT, allowing hit to Simply HIDE among the STATION STRUCTURE.