Marvin's Proper Etiquette for Requesting a Game Change

[DaveK]

Hi Akrion

That was then - this is now - perhaps it would be best to draw a line under "then" and move on.

Your idea is neat - I'm not sure that I would use it, but if it is optional and possible, then Vice (he who reads all!) might look at incorporating it into an update.

In EL there was an option to have a bubble cockpit for those who valued a clear view over a techno-gritty rivetted construction with flat glass panels. I chose the bubble option (I've always admired the Spitfitre canopy!). The external view didn't change - I could see better but others only saw the basic cockpit. I'm sad the option has disappeared in EM but someone has created a mod with, effectively, a bubble cockpit.

Now I've got my ship more or less as I want it for exploration, I am thinking of creating a second beasty for trade. (For combat I'll just buy a mil frame) I wonder, in the short term, if it's not too much hassle, whether a cockpit mod for each ship you own (given that I guess the external arrangment isn't going to change much or often) would give you what you want? I suspect that most pilots aren't zipping their wing positions around the frame very much! Just a thought!

[DaveK]

1. Decide on a change you’d like to see in the program.

etc

Nice idea!

And it wouldn't get in the way of the dreamers who would like to share their views about floating islands, ammo limited mass launcher canon, deployable gates, Excaliburs with the option to fire bursts of 2, 4 or 8 missiles at a time (:P:P:P:P:P:P), bars where you could pick up hints (:P:P:P:P:P:P) etc etc

I like it

[Stilton]

[ Wish i could prune all the fluff out this thread tbh ]

To those that are still beating this dead horse @ modding it --> Because its a feature addition, a code change, and NOT a remodelling of one cockpit model - its NOT something that a simple 'cockpit mod' would solve. Someone seemed to think i was joking when i made the suggestion that changing the design of your ship should be reflected from the cockpit... No, i wasnt joking.. its one of the most important parts...

...If you dont understand why the above is important and why its not going to be solved by one cockpit remodel i ask you to re-read the thread, my posts where i try to explain in more detail WHY im requesting this, you might understand the issue.


I understand this is a community board..
But until the dev (or a moderator) comes and tells me ive done wrong by posting my idea. I'll continue to enjoy the privilege that has all been afforded us all


@ Akrion i like your idea.. But adding the cockpit as an extra placeable is adding extra work i imagine..

Im not really talking about making the game much more complicated for the end user just the dev lol
Still maybe you could explain to me what the benefit of your idea in having a moveable placeable cockpit is..

Personally i could forsee this causing problems if the user decides stupidly to place his cockpit outside the exterior pieces.. Sure vice could allow for limits to the placement but then why not just have it fixed relative to the 'frame' piece that all others are built around.

This could also add further benefits/drawbacks to the different frames.. Some of the more military one would have more 'tactically' placed cockpits

At the moment, no offence.. Im just here to try and get the exterior visible from inside the cockpit, not any extra placement pieces added... At least someone 'got' my idea though lol.

[Edited on 5-19-2011 by Stilton]

[Edited on 5-19-2011 by Stilton]

[Stilton]

perhaps the participants are a bit too close to see how the tone of this thread has developed

No, im quite aware and ashamed at being responsible, still i had a dream...
However its very aggrovating to have an idea that you cant fully implement yourself because of the fact it's going to rely heavily on code..

..You come to the developers forums to try and get that across and explain that you think it'd be a good feature..


..Then people who can't understand or obviously didnt read the intial proposal come out with stuff like:
"Mod it yourself"


"But i cant, it would require an SDK or some sort of code integration into the existing game UI and isnt really to complete it to the level of polish i'd like so its actually usable ingame"


And the reply i get again is...
"Mod it youself"





[Edited on 5-19-2011 by Stilton]

[DaveK]

sorry - trying to help - I'm out of here - goodbye

[Stilton]

Dont take it to heart dude, you're not the first person to assume what im suggesting is doable via a cockpit mod...
..As you're like the 3rd or so person to come out with that suggestion.


All im saying is, if you'd read the original post.. and the posts suggesting i simply 'mod it' and the posts where i have replied:
'no that wouldnt give the desired effect given what you're able to do with modding'

- Unless those parts all happened in my mind.
You'll see your simply repeating whats been already said and even when it was originally said it wasnt valid.

I'm not trying to have a go, as people seem to think whenever they read my posts. Perhaps i have a 'tone' about my writing.

Also im not having a go at you, or calling your posts 'fluff' DaveK, that was in regards to the majority of posts after my initial one... This topic doesnt need to be 3 pages long.. Considering so much of it is repeat information, i guess its nice it makes it seem like its a 'controversial topic' but its only that because people apparently cant read.


[Edited on 5-19-2011 by Stilton]

[Marvin]

There was nothing wrong with your suggestion, Stilton. Guys were just pointing out some of the possible pitfalls of trying to implement it. So you wouldn't be disappointed or feel slighted if your idea never makes it into the game. And to avoid any possible complaint about how nobody listens to you. 'Cause I'm pretty sure Vice listens to everybody.

[Stilton]

thats great..

im glad vice replied already if im honest.. and since the topics gone on its also been nice to see people who see where im coming from and would like something similar implemented i also do completely understand what people are saying about reduced visibility, i even looked into the F-35's system...
Its been a learning experience for me too, again though, i wasnt trying to demand anything at all.. and especially not to force these options on people.

I just assumed people would understand that i was requesting these things as optional extras if the possibility of them coming around were to ever exist, like the multiple camera views you have already..
Because like the old phrase, if it aint broke dont fix it.. i dont expect everyone to want exactly what i want thats what makes the world so great diversity / choice. I could start talking about ice cream flavours but i think im getting off track


Anyway, thanks for all having the patience to hear me out despite me getting very defensive of my ideas

[Edited on 5-20-2011 by Stilton]

[Akrion Xxarr]

@ Akrion i like your idea.. But adding the cockpit as an extra placeable is adding extra work i imagine..

Im not really talking about making the game much more complicated for the end user just the dev lol
Still maybe you could explain to me what the benefit of your idea in having a moveable placeable cockpit is..

Personally i could forsee this causing problems if the user decides stupidly to place his cockpit outside the exterior pieces.. Sure vice could allow for limits to the placement but then why not just have it fixed relative to the 'frame' piece that all others are built around.

This could also add further benefits/drawbacks to the different frames.. Some of the more military one would have more 'tactically' placed cockpits

At the moment, no offence.. Im just here to try and get the exterior visible from inside the cockpit, not any extra placement pieces added... At least someone 'got' my idea though lol.

Before I say anything else I must thank you, Stilton, for providing constructive criticism and problems in response to my suggestion and specifically for asking me if I could go into detail over what I suggested so that you can have a better understanding of it. This is the kind of discussion I appreciate.

Anyway..
It was just a proof of concept, really. I was hoping to stir up discussion over possible methods to implement the change, though that clearly didn't work out. xD

The core idea behind my whole suggestion, however, was to look at the 'problem' in the light of repositioning the 3rd person camera with the purpose of emulating the 1st person camera, because the rendering method shouldn't have to be changed this way. Basically I was providing an idea that should have a good portion of its functionality already programmed in.

This is assuming the game is modular in any way. (e.g. That there's functionality for "First person view" and "Third person view" which have view modes.)

To make a very basic Object Oriented representation of what I mean (And I feel now that I must stress this is just a basic representation of how I assume the game is programmed it doesn't mean I'm assuming it must be OO in any way, just that it's modular.) :

Game View
-First Person View (Inherits from Game View)
--FPV Modes (Inherits from First Person View)
-Third Person View (Inherits from Game View)
--TPV Modes (Inherits from Third Person View)

If the game is programmed with something like this in mind, it should only require adding another Third Person View Mode to make a basic emulated 1st person view.

The movable cockpit was just meant to be a physical representation of the camera, letting the user place it where they wish, while working within the design scheme of the ship modification method. As I said it's far from a clean example and there would be problems you'd have to solve, one of them being what you pointed out: What if the user places it somewhere silly?

I could be entirely wrong in my assumptions and the game could very well be programmed with limited flexibility, and adding another view mode could require an entire redesign of the code. I'm just basing my assumptions on the fact that since this game is continually in development, a framework which allows for adding and removing features like view modes without rewriting all the code would be a definite plus to have.

[Marvin]

I was hoping to stir up discussion over possible methods to implement the change, though that clearly didn't work out. xD

Sure it did. Especially if you were proposing to basically increase the 3rd-person view so that the player could zoom all the way into the pilot's seat. I've seen that done in Orbiter. I've also seen it done to FPS characters (sometimes poorly ... nothing more gory than seeing your own eyeballs and lips). But wouldn't the 3rd-person cockpit need to have operational dials ... which, I guess, is how virtual cockpits are designed for some flight sims?

[Stilton]

Surely this '3rd person cockpit' could use the existing mesh already in place..
Then the art assets would be there, it would be functional, it wouldnt take up more space and finally, vice wouldnt be reinventing a wheel he's already polished and sold on ebay.

But i think its really up to him now...
he's the only, or one of the few, people who are actually qualified to judge whether this is doable and how to implement it... as a new camera or whatnot.

Its also pretty pointless discussing the ways its achievable - id hope the sole developer would have an idea or two, better than us, on how he could easily integrate this into the game.. considering he knows how its all coded so far

and now i think the topic is clear enough to have gotten my proposed idea across...

I will bow out gracefully because the last thing i want to get involved in is a mind-numbing theorycrafting discussion on how you could theoretically code the proposed changes if you even had a clue as to how the actual game was coded.
But then programming is mind numbing to me, so to each their own lol

Cheers chaps.

[Marvin]

Check out a post warsign made today. Personally, I prefer his "Phase 1" ... but that's robot simplicity for you.

[DaveK]

Check out a post warsign made today. Personally, I prefer his "Phase 1" ... but that's robot simplicity for you.

Hi - you beat me to it; this thread made me think about finding out more about modding and 3D modelling. I was pretty sure that I had seen some Evochron cockpits/mods with wings and visible noses which gave me an extra incentive - to be able to do a bit more than just (ha! just?) create a HUD.

I posted the thread you refer to to check whether I had imagined the wings and to see whether it was done within or outside the modding ability in the customising kit

Next step to see if I can find a 3D modelling prog and pop one of the files in - at this stage I have no idea whether it is going to be off my comprehension scale!

Then to create my own HUD, though I am sure that attempt 1 will end up as a modification of someone else's - there are some cool ones out there and the one I'm using is a mix - I really need to make some chnages so they look like they belong together more! :):):):)

[Stilton]

Nice cockpit he's built there doesnt really fulfill the threads requirements and so a bit offtopic but nice.

Looking at warsigns cockpit designs hes included wings in a few of them too, so despite him disliking this idea... He has implemented it in some of his designs.

It's also a nice highlight as to a real reason why people might be against the idea proposed and i'd again say that if this was ever implemented (hopefully) Vice would include it in such a way so that its switchable on/off (Visually) and wouldnt interfere with people who have custom designed cockpits to have gimmicky visual exterior features built into their custom cockpits - So then they wouldnt feel like they've wasted a lot of time - which might be a very valid reason for being against this idea



@ DaveK
Stick at it and youll get the hang of it - Its actually quite easy the modelling part that is.. Just time consuming.

Once youve learned how to use the 3d program itself, that is. Which yeh, again, time consuming.. But learning modelling is the same as learning most creative software, level editors, photo manipulation... (the part about is being time consuming anyway)
Also if you have the patience and start small its enough, for me anyway, of a reward when you can see bits start to appear in whatever you're working towards.. So if you start just trying to get a seat built and ingame and finally do it, its a great feeling of accomplishment.
Then you look back and realised you've spent a months worth of sparetime trying to get a seat to where it is and cry, but i digress.
But yeh again, kind of offtopic totally

[Edited on 5-25-2011 by Stilton]

[Edited on 5-25-2011 by Stilton]

[DaveK]

Thanks for the encouragement Stilton. Neither is completely off topic and if I hadn't misunderstood in the first place I wouldn't have looked at modelling and get tempted!

[Jack Dandy]

Just throwing my 2 shekels here- I love the Cockpit design as it is!
Very few games make it both so aesthetic, functional, and "gritty" at the same time.