exasperated and frustrated

[Sinbad]

Well done Aures! This is the real spirit of exploration in this game. If discovering hidden systems wasn't difficult then within a few months the whole of Evochron would be known and the game would lose it's long-term appeal for exploring the vastness of the universe.

However, I realise that this isn't everyone's idea of fun, so I agree with some of the previous posts that, at least perhaps for some of the games content, it would be a good idea to have more clues available to investigate. In conjunction with that there could still be other hidden systems out there which don't have any clues.

Incidentally having done a little exploration in Mercenary, it's my feeling that it's actually easier than Legends to discover hidden systems. If you take 15 or 20 minutes to fly away from the center of a known system you'll soon come across one of the "letter-number-number-number" systems which can often mean a hidden planet somewhere nearby.

[Rush]

I find the clue system the best solution to the problem. Maybe there could be a "station bar" where rumors (and maybe side-quests/particular contracts?) can be collected. Or clues can be inserted in the system information.

However, with a so vast universe, the exploration part surely has a lot of potential and can offer a lot of gameplay, if properly organized.

[Edited on 8-10-2010 by Rush]

[Marvin]

This is an entry from the default "systemdata" file:

-5
21
Lambda:
Lambda is a lightly populated system, but was once the home of the Federation
Military Command Center. Most of the system's population departed in the late
24th century due to increasing living costs, high Federation taxes and the
resulting decrease of opportunities for freelance mercenaries. By the turn of
the century, most Federation companies departed the system and Lambda now
primarily consists of just a few scattered independent colonies. While not a
particularly hostile system, the quest for survival does lead to several small
scale conflicts. A good buy can sometimes be found here, but Lambda is not
considered a good place to make a profit. Although in Richton space, a division
of Federation territory, Lambda is now primarily independent.

Economy Classes:
Technology, Agricultural

Faction Details:
Energy Companies - Moderate presence and influence, main economic factor.
Navy/Military - Moderate presence, scattered and not well organized.
Rebels - Light presence, mostly independent groups that reject local leadership.
Guilds/Clans - Light presence, occasionally engage local forces for resources.
Miners - Unknown presence, likely a few scattered ships, not a significant faction.

It's pretty much the same as in Legends. It's a text file and easily modified. Your hints could be incorporated ... the only major difficulties would be in: (a) finding the hidden stuff; (b) coming up with a clever set of hints; (c) getting servers and players to swap out the default file for the mod.

[Aures]

Can the systemdata file be modified to include descriptions of lnnns? They either have no description or use the nearest known system one. Haven't tried that myself, seems like an ideal place to put nondescript clues.

But part of my point was that the game already has a built in and robust clue system. I have no idea if my method works in Legends, but I think exploring in Mercenary is probably much easier. I got 171 jumps to find a hidden system in an area of space I was completely new to. That was with extra stuffing about wasting time as well as more jumps with longer intervals between them in the interest of mapping. I estimate it takes about 14 seconds for a full jump cycle on autopilot. If I had left the autopilot on and just kept modifying my destination I could have done 171 jumps in 40 minutes.

The timescale I estimated is within reach of the casual gamer. And it only gets easier after the first hidden system you find. It may still not be everyone's cup of tea, but you really don't know how much you enjoy exploring until you find something for yourself.

Many people of course don't have the time to find all or most of the hidden systems themselves and it isn't like the game is lacking in other stuff that you may prefer to exploring. But, I would consider it something that should be done at least once as an item to cross off your list. And who knows, you might get enough of a kick out of finding one hidden system to use all the clues you gathered on the way to start looking for the next one.

My experience was probably pretty typical in that I went about half way around the edge of one system to find the hidden system it is a part of. Even if I had been right next to the hidden system at the start and had circumnavigated in the wrong direction I could have found the hidden system in less than 2 hours.

[Maarschalk]

Yes, you can modify the system data file yourself with what ever you want. It is just a text file and what ever you put in there will show up in the news console of the Stations and Cities you visit in that System....

[Edited on 10-9-2010 by Maarschalk]

[Aures]

I think a modified system data file would be a great way of giving good clues for people to find stuff themselves. Just a common description shared between all lnnns in a hidden system listing which lnnns are part of the system would go more than halfway there.

Enter a lnnns, look at the description and then go till you hit a lnnns that isn't part of it. Follow the border from there until you are at the border between two lnnns that are part of the same hidden system. Follow that border to the hidden system. Easy.

The hidden systems I have found don't really seem to have an overall name, just a bunch of different lnnn planets. Maybe the entire system should be designated by whatever lnnns the star happens to be in.

EDIT:

Ok found another one. After I went back to where I was at the end of the initial straight line dash from my previous voyage it only took 10 jumps to find the hidden system of the lnnns I was following.

I did a straight line dash from another part of inhabited space on the same line as my original one but in the opposite direction. I did more than 200 jumps to get back to my original location but that is surveying rather than hunting. I ran across 5 new lnnns to hunt down in the process and I now have surveyed a complete line between two known systems.

181 jumps to find two hidden systems for an average of 90.5 each. I hope that average will keep coming down. All three hidden systems I have been to have been 2 SZ off the ecliptic.

[Edited on 9-10-2010 by Aures]

[Marvin]

Here's a modified "systemdata" file ... the changes are in italics:

-21
20
Rucker:
Rucker is named for the admiral of the Alliance fleet in the first
Alliance-Federation war. It is a large system filled with asteroids, making
jump drive navigation dangerous. While not a common stop for mercenaries
due to the difficult navigation conditions, it does offer a moderate economy
with no docking fees and low prices. It is considered a potential gold mine
for well equipped mercenaries interested in mining due to its vast asteroid
fields and its close proximity to the high paying Pearl system. Rumor has it
that a gate once existed between the asteroid fields situated to the east,
a gate linking Rucker with a star system located even further eastward.

Economy Classes:
Industrial

Faction Details:
Energy Companies - Strong presence, includes miners for harvesting ore.
Navy/Military - Moderate presence, primarily protects energy interests.
Rebels - Light presence, occasionally seen joining with Guilds/Clans.
Guilds/Clans - Light presence, primarily opportunistic explorers.
Miners - Joined with energy companies for common energy supply goals.

The second line ("20") defines the number of lines in the body of the text. Prior to modding the file, it read "18" ... the last two lines in the description of Rucker being what I added.

One way of defining a clue would be similar to how a science officer tells you where to find cargo: heading and pitch. Add distance in sectors and you have a clue ... one that a sloppy pilot probably can't follow.

Edit: Might not work. Probably won't. The first number ("-21" in the example) corresponds to the area of space being described and that area of space is defined in the "universe" file ... which cannot be read, let alone modified. So, all those hidden systems which are in oddly numbered areas of space ... well, unless you know the number (e.g. -21) corresponding to the system in question, you can't add the system to the "systemdata" file or get it to show up in game. And that number is located in the unreadable "universe" file.

[Edited on 10-9-2010 by Marvin]

[Aures]

Thanks Marvin, thought there might be an issue with creating descriptions for systems that don't currently have any.

Found another hidden system using my method starting from the last one I found. Took 141 jumps this time, but only because I thought a planet I hadn't found yet in the last system was part of the system I was looking for. So I did a almost complete lap of the border of that planets system in 112 jumps. If I had known what I was doing I would followed the anti-node I found after 67 jumps. I then did 10 jumps to get from the planet (after I had smacked myself on the head for being too hasty to get to the next system) back to the anti-node. From there it was only 19 jumps to the node. So the total would have been 96 jumps if I hadn't been sidetracked.

I am glad I did a complete lap of a lnnns though because that shows roughly how big it is, I will be interested to chuck that into my graphing program. It demonstrates a worse case scenario. Even taking the extra jumps into account my average number of jumps per hidden object found is quite low, somewhat less than 20 jumps per object. I was also able to determine the complete set of nodes and anti-nodes around the lnnns. 1 node, 1 anti-node leading to the next hidden system and 2 anti-nodes either side where a border between two lnnns in my starting system hit an lnnns in the next system.

Except for my confusion my method that I already posted yielded a near optimal way of finding one hidden system from another in about 100 jumps. The two systems are about 180 sectors apart, so even if I knew where it was it would have taken 20 jumps to get there.

There is a trail of breadcrumbs throughout space leading directly to the hidden systems. If there was an option "sectors" in the text on list that showed what system every sector in your scanner range belonged to it would be pretty trivial to find hidden systems.

[DaveK]

I really like the idea of paying for graded clues/info- perhaps a "free" rumour as an appetiser, and to allow "hardened" explorers to find things for free - graded clues for sale for the time and navigationally challenged amongst us. Paying would also be a good cash sink in that you are buying something of real value, rather then pictures for the wall of your virtual holiday apartment in Sapphire (though I don't object if that what you want to spend your money on! )

I'm happy about having some hidden hidden systems with no clues for those who want the challenge.

Deciding which items are available solely in hidden systems needs a bit of thought. It should be goodies that don't unbalance the gameplay too much, so that those who don't fancy exploring don't miss out on too much fun. The rewards for finding a hidden system should be worth the effort though. Perhaps the hidden system goodies could be available in tough mapped systems and/or at geometrically higher prices than being charged in hidden systems.

For example a new drive technology, twice as good as the best standard stuff might be 3x the cost of the best standard drive when obtained in a hidden system, but 20x the cost in a medium/hard mapped system and 10x the cost in hard/hard mapped system. Those with combat skills and money would still have access to the latest boys' toys but would have to work hard to get them.

I think availability/price would be fairly easy for Vice to programme in - though my programming experience is limited to basic and compiled machine code on a BBC many many years ago. Hints would be easy to incorporate in the system text file. The graded clues stuff would need craetivity (and hence time) - which Vice patently has a lot of plus a prgramming effort of unknown complexity

Overall, I think that some form of graded help system for finding things would be the single biggest improvement the game could have.

Despite the dificulty of finding things, EM (and EL) are still the best space sims/games I've ever come across!

[Edited on 9-10-2010 by DaveK]

[DaveK]

Marvin

If Vice would release the area numbers to the discoverer of the hidden system (who obviously knows where he/she is) would that info by itself be useful to anyone else trying to find the system from the clues being offered?

There would also have to be a mechanism for updating the data file and posting it - perhaps a volunteer could be found to maintain it - I'd be happy to oblige!

[Aures]

I'm not sure if there are hidden goodies you can get beyond what is available at the end of the IMG quest. At that location you can get anything that is listed in the faq. I think all of it can be gotten at a certain planet in the known part of the system too.

I am still hunting for somewhere that is a better trade run but nothing so far.

BTW I left the area I was exploring above and headed off back to known space and out again from a different place. I ran across Al's, but I haven't found anything in it yet. Everywhere I went before was inside one of the 4 main rings of systems that are in different quadrants of the quadrant map. Now I am heading outside that and the sectors appear to be much bigger. Makes sense, less stuff.

So if you want to find hidden stuff quickly I guess the moral is the right system to start from is a known one in a ring of systems. The right direction to head is inwards to the centre of the ring. Of course three of the rings now have known systems in them that are new to Mercenary so starting from one of them and going in any direction is probably good.

[DaveK]

Hi Aures

If there aren't any other hidden goodies, I wonder what the incentive is for finding new systems? - The USS Enterprise was looking for new civilisations - would uncharted systems have new species with new technology - if they only have the same stuff as in the IMG quest then do they all belong to the same "federation"? I wonder why they want to stay hidden?

edit:

duhh! - perhaps new gates and wormholes (like in riftspace) Perhaps cheaper goods or willingness to pay much more for stuff to make trade routes - sorry, I'm getting old and though challenged sometimes!!

[Edited on 9-10-2010 by DaveK]

[DaveK]

Marvin

Is the rumour in your example a real rumour?

[Marvin]

It's real. And it can be used in MP. Here it is on MMaggio's server:

[DaveK]

Thanks!

[Marvin]

Using the files in Legends, I can show you how the file system in Mercenary works.

There are two files that mesh together. The first is the “systemdata� file … it can be opened with a text editor, no problem. Here is how the Rucker system is listed in Legends:

-21
18
Rucker:
Rucker is named for the admiral of the Alliance fleet in the first
Alliance-Federation war. It is a large system filled with asteroids, making
jump drive navigation dangerous. While not a common stop for mercenaries
due to the difficult navigation conditions, it does offer a moderate economy
with no docking fees and low prices. It is considered a potential gold mine
for well equipped mercenaries interested in mining due to its vast asteroid
fields and its close proximity to the high paying Pearl system.

Economy Classes:
Industrial

Faction Details:
Energy Companies - Strong presence, includes miners for harvesting ore.
Navy/Military - Moderate presence, primarily protects energy interests.
Rebels - Light presence, occasionally seen joining with Guilds/Clans.
Guilds/Clans - Light presence, primarily opportunistic explorers.
Miners - Joined with energy companies for common energy supply goals.

The second file was called “universedata� in Legends and could also be opened with a text editor. Problem was … well, the problems have been discussed almost to death already. Here is how the corresponding Rucker section looked:

' ******************************************* Rucker system

-Local Nebula Backdrop And Reputation
NebBackXLow=1001
NebBackXHigh=2000
NebBackYLow=-100
NebBackYHigh=100
NebBackZLow=-2500
NebBackZHigh=-1000
NebBackText=1
ReputationID=21
Reputation=1
-EndNebBack

The differences between Legends’ “universedata� and Mercenary’s encoded “universe� file do not affect how the system data is linked or displayed. Basically, every system has an ID number … for Rucker, that number is defined in the “universedata� file as:

ReputationID=21

It works the same way in Mercenary.

That number corresponds to the first number (of each system) in the “systemdata� file:

-21

The reputation ID is unique for each system … both for Legends and for Mercenary.

Ergo, after Vice gets finished squashing all the remaining little bugs that have cropped up, perhaps you can convince him to add a list to the Mercenary Customizing Kit. A list of system names and their corresponding ID numbers. That’s all. Nothing else.

I’m a staunch advocate of realism. Nonetheless, assuming there’s at least one star in each unlisted system, I’d think it reasonable to say anyone could see the star and head in that direction. So the system, itself, wouldn’t be secret. A list of system IDs would arguably simulate that kind of reality.

[DaveK]

Thanks - it's fascinating to see how a system is coded. Presumably in the MP encoded data file there will be details for each planet, gate, asteroid field and so on in the system.

If Vice was willing to make the system number and name available, all he would be giving away would be the number of hidden systems. It wouldn't help in finding them, but would allow them to be identified when they have been found. If there are a large number it would also encourage people to explore since there would be a greater chance of finding somewhere.

A thought! . . . I've not yet been playing long enough to find a hidden system in Mercenary - When you are in one, presumably the navigation console shows the name. Vice's info would allow you to allocate it's unique identity and then it would be possible to:

create rumours/clues
create a desription like those given for charted systems

Someone would/could collate and maintain the systemdata.dat file and make it available for uploading so that players could (if they so wish) access info about the systems. It would still require a hardy explorer to find the system in the first place and then be willing to share the info

I still like the idea of graded clues for sale in the game itself, but this method would allow the info to be incorporated into the game as systems were discovered

Again, thanks for your time and the information

[Aures]

If you wanted to be paranoid a little program that takes the location of a planet in a lnnns as input and spits out the ID as output would get around those issues. But that would be work.

I have only heard about otherwise unavailable equipment from people who are speculating and have not really been out of known space. Many have not yet finished the IMG quest so there might be some confusion there. I think it might be one of those rumours that tends to feed on itself. The only thing I have heard of from people who know about good hidden locations is that they can be "useful".

I once heard someone talking about their frustration in multiplayer because they were outmatched by other players having class 10+ shields. AFAIK there are only shields level 1 to 10 and they are all available in every shipyard. I'm not even sure if that player really believed such things exist, but it is the kind of stuff that other new players might pick up on.

Wouldn't want anyone going to the trouble of hunting down a hidden system like me and then getting cheesed off because there is nothing really unique about it. There probably are lots of hidden benefits to be found but otherwise undocumented equipment etc is not part of it AFAIK.

So finding most hidden systems is probably more for novelty value. But yes, I do presume I will be able to make more profit than I can currently when I have found enough. Right now most trade and other money earning activity is mostly for novelty value once you have finished the IMG quest. The most profitable obvious trade route from that eclipses everything else I know about in terms of profit/hour so it is not worth doing anything else for money. I do contracts for fun, rep and military rank. The money is inconsequential. If I need more money, two trade runs each taking less than 15 minutes easily yields over 100 million credits.

I really should get around to visiting the other hidden planets in known systems, in Legends at least one of them was a better place to sell stuff than where I currently know about.

[Marvin]

Originally posted by DaveK

A thought! . . . I've not yet been playing long enough to find a hidden system in Mercenary - When you are in one, presumably the navigation console shows the name.

You'll see the name in the upper-left corner. If you have time, load up on fuel and set your autopilot to fly from Sapphire to Sierra. Watch as the system name changes. When it does, press F3 and check out the system data option. If the description has changed, you'll know there's a unique number associated with that system name.

[Edited on 10-10-2010 by Marvin]

[DaveK]

[Aures]

That's what all my talk about lnnns was about, it refers to finding the hidden systems by paying attention to the system the game says you are in. It is actually pretty easy and doesn't take that long (at least if you are in a densely populated area of space).

[Marvin]

It's definitely worth checking out.

[tha_rami]

Maybe Vice could try and calculate the distance, heading and pitch for the nearest three stars to a player and display them as ever-so-slighly denser stars in the dense starfield. That would still keep exploring difficult, but it would add at least a bit of a hint where to go.

I agree that exploring is too hard, I do not agree showing all is a viable solution as it removes reward. I also do not agree that 'play multiplayer' is a valid answer. Hints is the way to go.

[Aures]

Being able to see stars from further away is a good idea and it has been suggested before. But, it would take some effort and not provide much of a clue unless it is quite dramatic. I would like to see stars properly represented from further away but I think a solution more oriented to the sector names would be of more help in exploration. Your suggestion would be good for a lot of named systems though. I have been across Al's Quay but have not seen anything yet. If I could just look around for a bright star and go towards that it would be much easier to find.

My method for finding hidden systems is effective and easy to follow. You don't have to keep track of all locations like I do, following borders and marking anti-nodes using the in game maplog function would be almost as effective as logging everything. Keeping track of everywhere you have been just makes it easier to not go over the same ground and has other benefits.

There are two obvious ways you could replace recording stuff into an excel file like me with an in game function. One is with a fog of war effect where you always know the system designation of any sector you have been to. That would allow people to easily follow the border like I do without recording the system designation. There are two problems with that approach in that it would require you to implement part of my second suggestion anyway and would need substantial storage space to keep track of it all.

The second and much simpler way is to add another option to the text on options in the nav map. It would say something like "system" and when you click on it it would display the system designation of every sector in your nav map (except the outermost row on x8 which is out of your scan range). Then the borders between systems would stand out clear as day and would be easy to follow to hidden systems. It wouldn't take much work to implement. The only problem I can see is if Vice thinks you shouldn't be able to know the system designation of a sector just by being within scan range of it or if he thinks it would make finding hidden systems too easy.

It would complement but does not require your suggestion. When you start getting close to a hidden system you will naturally see the star if you face the general direction you are jumping in if your suggestion is implemented. If you don't want to bother looking around or your suggestion is not implemented you could just keep following the border . The actual act of following the borders is fun and feels like real exploration.

My batting average is something like 25 jumps per hidden object or less using my method. That is with having to constantly test where the border is. If you could just see it then the process would be considerably quicker and easier without being any less fun. Would an average of 10-20 jumps per hidden object inside one to the known system "loops" count as sufficiently easy to answer the complaints about exploration being too hard?

[Edited on 11-10-2010 by Aures]

[Marvin]

A good way to start might be to just map the borders ... then plot them on graph paper (see See-Jay's website for an "on-line" graph). Once you know how all the systems fit together, it should be easier to systematically explore them, one by one.

As for displaying more than just the "local" star ... in a limited universe (meaning, not infinite or near-infinite), things would get hairy as you approached the edge. All those stars would then be in one direction, clumped together into a big ball. Kind of like walking out of a forest and seeing all the trees clumped together on the horizon.