Which Control Device Do You Play Evochron With?

Xiuhcoatl · Post by **Xiuhcoatl** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:59 am

Though not a joystick, I prefer using the Star-Trek type control with a Compaq mouse and Philips keyboard. I believe that this is a wonderful combination because of all the wonderful munuevers available in the game.

[Edited on 12-7-2008 by Xiuhcoatl]

Wasp89 · Post by **Wasp89** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 7:53 am

I use a Saitek ST290 Pro. It's a good stick, and I have bound all of the essentials for dogfighting to the buttons: a button to balance shields, countermeasures, next target, hardpoint select and secondary weapons fire (and the trigger for primary, of course). The controller is good, if a bit noisy. (It tends to creak a lot). Since my main computer is my laptop, when I am away from my apartment and have a few minutes to kill and the urge to play, I use a little wireless mouse.

Also, I'm curious. How does everybody here control their craft axes? Growing up on X-wing vs. Tie Fighter and X-wing Alliance taught me to roll (as if utilizing ailerons) by twisting the joystick and to turn left and right (as if utilizing rudder) by tilting left and right; opposite to most flight sims.

49rTbird · Post by **49rTbird** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 4:50 pm

Hi Wasp89, I use your method with my X52. It seems to work best with little thought. C U in MP sometime. The Saitek sticks seem to make noise as they age as our bodies do also (lol).

Starman · Post by **Starman** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:32 pm

Hiya all,
I'm new here and thoroughly enjoying this game.
I have being using a modded Thrustmaster Cougar for the last 3 or four years, bit exspensive but you would have to be a very serious flight simmer and not married, to appreciate, Lol! Excellent stick, easy to program and functionally very powerful.
But the X52 does look sexy. Allot of peeps seem to have allot problems with Thrustmasters support, mine has all been very positive. Spare parts has always shipped to me promptly and they are helpfull in phone support, no problem.

[Edited on 12-12-2008 by Starman]

Starman · Post by **Starman** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:02 pm

Originally posted by Wasp89
I use a Saitek ST290 Pro. It's a good stick, and I have bound all of the essentials for dogfighting to the buttons: a button to balance shields, countermeasures, next target, hardpoint select and secondary weapons fire (and the trigger for primary, of course). The controller is good, if a bit noisy. (It tends to creak a lot). Since my main computer is my laptop, when I am away from my apartment and have a few minutes to kill and the urge to play, I use a little wireless mouse.

Also, I'm curious. How does everybody here control their craft axes? Growing up on X-wing vs. Tie Fighter and X-wing Alliance taught me to roll (as if utilizing ailerons) by twisting the joystick and to turn left and right (as if utilizing rudder) by tilting left and right; opposite to most flight sims.

Hi,
I also use the pitch and roll system while using the "turn right and left" as yah. I grew up with the Elite series (showing my age now) that used the pitch and roll system; since then I have configured every space sim I played that way, so mapping the X axis to roll and rudders to turn left right (if no rudder support, map to keyboard or mapped to the HOTAS ) , effectively used as yah, the Y axis obviously stays as is. I used it in X3 and have configured Evochron to this system aswell. It make for excellent immersion while using TrackIR and adds more a realistic difficulty to the control of the craft, I think anyway.

[Edited on 12-12-2008 by Starman]

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:24 pm

Currently I use a Logitch Wingman Extreme joystick with the Logictech wireless media keyboard. I still have to remap the buttons on the joystick for optimal usage.

One thing I would like to do is use my 8 way hat switch for switching views but I've had no luck in the past. Does anyone else use the hat switch?

[Edited on 12-12-2008 by Weasel]
Never mind, I found my answer on this board but while trying to configure my hat switch I ran in to an interesting error.

Error Description:
I began to configure my joystick axis, got as far as setting up move left right, and pitch, then set no axis control for the next options until I got to strafe. I set the axis that seemed to respond when I press my hat switch (axis 6 I believe) for strafe left and right, and only axis 6 responds to the hat switch. When asked to choose an axis for strafe up and down I tired to select axis 6 again just to see what would happen. Nothing did so I decided cancel the changes. When I pressed the option in the lower right hand corner (can't remember the what it said) the game game crashed with a Runtime Error : Error 103.

[Edited on 12-12-2008 by Weasel]

Storm · Post by **Storm** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:09 pm

I have a Saitek X52 Pro; but I uninstalled old drivers back in 2007, wrapped the joystick and throttle in plastic, and put them on a shelf. There just weren't any games worth playing - the closest was VegaStrike, which turned out to have some showstopping bugs (for me).

After I decided to register Evochron Renegades, I downloaded and archived the latest X52 drivers; but I haven't installed them yet.

Because of ergonomics (limited space to put the throttle AND keyboard AND joystick AND mouse) and a bad back (using the joystick makes me think like I am attempting to practice "Octopus Yoga"), I am using mouse control for Renegades. Its very do-able.

warsign · Post by **warsign** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:49 pm

Originally posted by Storm
I have a Saitek X52 Pro; but I uninstalled old drivers back in 2007, wrapped the joystick and throttle in plastic, and put them on a shelf. There just weren't any games worth playing - the closest was VegaStrike, which turned out to have some showstopping bugs (for me).

After I decided to register Evochron Renegades, I downloaded and archived the latest X52 drivers; but I haven't installed them yet.

Because of ergonomics (limited space to put the throttle AND keyboard AND joystick AND mouse) and a bad back (using the joystick makes me think like I am attempting to practice "Octopus Yoga"), I am using mouse control for Renegades. Its very do-able.

İf you use mouse instead of X52 pro, you are missing alot

Ask MMaggio for programming and using your stick

MMaggio · Post by **MMaggio** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:37 pm

Hey Storm! did you know that the X45 can be programmed todouble as the mouse? and did you know that it can be done in-game as well?
This allows for accessing drop downs and menus while docked without having to switch from controller to mouse.
Barring that, Vice's games are "Saitek friendly" and allow for quick and easy programming within the game.
I can understand the restrictions of the computer desk tho'.
U2U me if you have any questions.

Storm · Post by **Storm** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:28 pm

(Warsign, MMaggio, Eclipse)... hmmm... in that case I might just install the X52 drivers tonight .... I can shove the mouse to the back of the desk while playing ER (sorry, mouse... I'll leave a piece of cheese for you...).

I understand what you are saying. In other words you DON'T have to install the Saitek SST software to program the stick, because ER can understand all the buttons and you can specify bindings in-game to save into the ER configuration files. Probably works better, too.

Storm · Post by **Storm** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 8:53 am

(Eclipse)
Normally I don't switch modes. Too many buttons to remember! In any case, in my mind, the purpose of something like an X52 Pro is to add realism (a joystick versus flying-with-a-mouse), and to make the most often used functions in combat more available; things like afterburners, countermeasures, targeting. I wouldn't necessarily want to bind the F2/ALT F2 jump functions, or Jettson cargo, or Eject. Same for NavMap, Inventory Screen, etc. JUST what needs to be at my fingertips while flying & fighting.

Rayden1020 · Post by **Rayden1020** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:10 am

Actually, I don't use any of the above. I use a touchpad on a laptop XDD

Heavy Armor · Post by **Heavy Armor** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:35 pm

I just ordered a Saitek Cyborg X. This will be my first joystick ever... hope I didn't go too overboard! The few reviews I found were very favorable.

I like the dual throttles... I'm hoping I can use one to control the thrust and map the other to control the energy/shield power.

~HA

[Edited on 1-16-2009 by Heavy Armor]

MMaggio · Post by **MMaggio** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:43 pm

Storm, the X52 you have is the "most powerful, progammable controller in the world!" [my quote]
You should not be intimidated by it's apparent complexity.
It is a simple matter of plotting controls to be "intuitive". To make them easily remembered by assigning actions to buttons/switches that "make sence".
But the important thing is that you are comfortable with what you have and the game is still enjoyable.
Have fun!

Storm · Post by **Storm** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:28 am

MMaggio,

I have a question, will put it at the end of the post; for you or anyone else that might know.

I very much agree (on the X52, I have an X52 Pro). I DID enjoy it while I played VegaStrike back in 2007. Initially, I used the SST software, but then I changed it to just use native bindings within VegaStrike (ER's system of bindings is similar, but EASIER to use).

Limited desk space is a problem. I have to;

(a) shift my keyboard over a little

(b) throttle goes to the left of the keyboard, TOUCHING the left side of the keyboard to make a tight "cluster"

(c) I build a "platform" of sorts using a right desk drawer.. I stick an old leather cassette tape across the top of the opened right side desk drawer, and that is where the joystick rests. I cant USE it there, though - it stretches my arms out too much and I have some minor back problems. To use it, I knock my mouse back and set the joystick at the right side of the keyboard, again to make a tight "cluster". Its STILL not "ergonomically good", though.

===== =====

QUESTION: I uninstalled the Saitek SST, the X52 drivers, and the Saitek GM3200 Gaming Mouse drivers back in 2007 when I was "done with VegaStrike".

I recently (sometime after 5 JAN 2009) downloaded the latest Saitek X52 Pro drivers, GM3200 Gaming Mouse drivers, and the latest SST; they are on my hard drive ready to install, and archived onto a DVD.

The GM3200 mouse drivers don't seem to be REQUIRED, unless you intend to make defines for the GM3200 in the SST. If a game (such as VegaStrike or ER) has native binding ability, you don't NEED the Saitek SST. I ran VegaStrike * after uninstalling the GM3200 drivers ** with no problem, the GM3200 worked just fine.

(oops I just checked, the old GM3200 drivers are still installed - my mistake. I should probably install the latest ones - but it probably isnt absolutely necessary).

Strictly speaking, does one NEED to install the X52 Pro drivers?

I don't intend to install the SST, I will just bind in ER.

Wouldn't WinVista just DETECT the X52 Pro as a USB joystick when you plug it in? I'm tempted to try this - I guess I could just plug it in and see what happens, and if Vista asks for drivers, or "demands" drivers, I could install
them.

I will just have to experiment, unless someone knows for sure....

MMaggio · Post by **MMaggio** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:48 am

Vista should just "see" the controller instantly. You can verify this by going into control panel, selecting controller. The Saitek should be listed. Click OK, then properties and the "test" window should appear.
Vice specifically makes his games, "Joystick Friendly" and uses the X52 himself.
My point is, that without installing the drivers and using the SST, you just aren't getting your monies worth.
For example, did you know that you can program the controller to double as mouse within the game, so that use of the "table mouse" is not necessary. You can dock and access menus, select items, etc. without leaving the controller. Typing messagges still remains the provence of the keyboard, but with 36 assignable buttons, it's concievable that you could assign every letter to a button!
You'd have to have one helluva memory for that to work, tho!
Certainly, you can assign controls directly within the game and many do. I'm not sure, but I don't think even Vice uses the SST!
It is not necessary to D/L the newest drivers. It won't add anything to the disc and drivers you already have.
Again, I admit that programming the controller might be "daunting", but I can show you easily and once you get the hang of it, you will be using it more.
Good Luck & have fun!

Storm · Post by **Storm** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:54 am

MMaggio;
Thats right, you told me that before but I forgot (mouse functions using the X52 / SST). Okay, sounds like I should just go ahead and install the whole suite then.

I will install the latest Saitek GM3200 Gaming Mouse drivers (GOOD mouse by the way - mainly because it is so SOLID. It has adjustable levels of weights in it), the X52 / and SST software.

(edit); come to think of it, SST would be necessary if I want to properly program the throttle for "incremental thruster settings". I.E. instead of conventional throttle operation, the throttle range = divided into 12 zones; ranging from MIN = BACKSPACE for full stop, then number keys 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0, then MAX = AfterBurner

But this should be a narrow zone restricted to a narrow band at the top of the throttle range. Otherwise WHOMP into things accidently. "Grandpa, whats fer supper". "Storm Pancakes!"

[Edited on 1-17-2009 by Storm]

Storm · Post by **Storm** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:24 pm

Ack... it's just not going to work for me.

A couple of years ago, the X52 gave me problems... ergonomically.

I did a "dry run"... put the joystick and throttle where they would be, without plugging them in, and worked the controls to get the feel of them. Left my hands on them for little while. A few minutes, and I am uncomfortable. I know that from a couple of years ago, my back would start hurting after about 30 minutes of this, and my shoulders would hurt.

If I had a different desk / chair, more room, maybe. A chair with platforms on either side. Right now I have a very cramped desk and an office chair.

So for now, its just going to have to be mouse control.

[Edited on 1-17-2009 by Storm]

MMaggio · Post by **MMaggio** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:51 pm

I understand your prob Storm. I built a custom chair I am very proud of and use it from the middle of the living room floor so I can play on my big screen TV!
But you are wrong about the throttle control, at least as far as Vice's games are concerned. The throttle will be proportional. There is no need to create 10 or 12 bands for control.
Actually, most "modern" or recent games have proportional control. I do have some of the older games and it is necessary to band the throttle. Some games don't even offer step control! It's just "go" and "coast"!
Anyway, if your set-up changes, I'll be glad to help.
Have fun!:D

Storm · Post by **Storm** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:11 am

MMaggio ;
I'm on to an idea, I might be able to buy a certain kind of chair (dont care what it looks like, as long as the dimensions work)... maybe cheap from the Salvation Army or something.

If platforms for Throttle and Joystick are on the sides (arms of chair), and the relationship between chair / throttle / joystick / desk / keyboard are just right, it might work.

The problem with my joints / back is complicated, comes from what caused my *first* heart attack back in 1998. It took them a while to figure out what was going on. Blood clots in the joints. When I retired from the military in 1996, I was "healthy as a horse", but after the first heart attack (which as it turns out was just a symptom of something else), I've had a few problems. Heart is okay now after the FOURTH surgery in 2005 (and the EIGHTH cardiac stent placement). Shoulders / back / legs and left elbow still have a little pain from time to time.

=====

Throttle Banding - my PREVIOUS experience with other space sims (all the way back to DOS / Thrustmaster Joy & Throttle, and most recently VegaStrike in 2007); is that if you use proportional control, your speed .... "jiggles" a bit. No big deal, but I would prefer the velocity remain stable. Also with a proportional control in many space sims the "match target speed" will not work (depends on programming); don't know if ER is like that, how smooth proportional control is or if match target works w/ proportional control.

If throttle banding / sent characters are used (rather than direct output from the potentiometers)... velocity would ALWAYS be smooth, match target speed would work. The throttle could be set up to transmit FullStop-> 10% -> ... -> 100% -> Afterburner (afterburner SHOULD be programmed to activate at some point AFTER the X52 detent on the throttle, to avoid accidently kicking it in).

BUT, there should be a secondary AB button defined on the throttle, so that one could set velocity to zero and fire afterburners in short bursts (thats how I get close to asteroids etc). Also auxiliary buttons at least for FullStop, possibly 100%, in case you enter the game with the (banded/character defined) throttle at 90% or something, and as a way of "reseting" the throttle.

MMaggio · Post by **MMaggio** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:11 am

Sorry about your back. I hope you find a comfortable chair. All you need is to fasten a couple of boards to the side and two boxes for the controllers. Joystick on the right, throttle on the left. If you offer your email addy, I can send you some pictures of my chair to give you an idea. If you do not wish to make your eamil addy public, you can use U2U.
As for throttle, I assure you sir, that the X52 will not "jiggle"! Besides, there is no step program in Vices games to assign anyway.
With 36 buttons, I am confident you will find enough for afterburner and everything else you want. I have written hundreds of profiles and can offer what is, for me, a logical & intuitive program that you can use as is or as a guide.
Let me know if I can be of any further assistance.

Storm · Post by **Storm** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:23 pm

MMaggio;

Thanks for those 2 pictures, I appreciate it.
Yes that is pretty much what I was visualizing.

And you made it out of an office chair... I have an office chair right now, but it doesn't have arms on it. I DID take the time to adjust its height last night. All along, it WASN'T at the best height....

I have another one, a folding chair, but it is armless also.

So.. it occurs to me, maybe I can just put big cardboard shipping boxes (I have a PLENTIFUL supply of those, I rarely throw them away).... on either side of my current chair. Kind of "box the chair in"... but the boxes are light enought to shove to the side when I am done.

That might be a good temporary compromise solution.

[Edited on 1-18-2009 by Storm]

Storm · Post by **Storm** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:05 am

MMaggio...

Saitek X52 Pro Problem solved.

Basically, I adjusted the office chair that I already had (had to increase its height a few inches).

AND re-arrange my desk. That wasn't as easy as it might sound. My desk has my computer on it, and the monitor, the keyboard, the speakers (including the subwoofer, sitting behind the monitor and to the left... I don't like it to sit on the floor for a couple of reasons), and my printer. A switched surge suppressor behind it all. But, it was all a matter of tweaking things just a little, and adjusting a few *angles* (don't ask).

The X52 throttle is to the left of the keyboard, and it can stay there.

In order to use my mouse, I have to move the joystick over a bit to a small platform I made. Otherwise, when ready to use the joystick I shove the mouse back and move the joystick to the right of the keyboard.

I can use it all, it works, and I don't feel any discomfort now (mainly the chair height I think).

I installed the latest drivers and the SST. BIG improvement over the previous version that I had (circa 2007). The 2007 SST software, AND the *drivers*, were a bit flakey.

I don't have a profile defined (or even started yet), I just checked it all out using native bindings in Renegades (after I selected the axes). Using the Saitek control panel, I made a sketch of where all the buttons are and what numbers / control names they use. Later I will use Paint Shop Pro to draw a "neater", more professional looking template - button and control names, button numbers, and blanks to fill in - for printing. Cheat sheets to use after a profile is defined.

Had a MINOR problem with using the proportional throttle... it couldn't rest down to absolute zero (but it could go to maximum speed); at first.

ER does have ONE deadzone setting, but I guess it applies to everything if you use it. When I experimented with deadzone settings (in ER), the joystick got sluggish, I could make the throttle go to zero but then it couldn't go to maximum speed (IE 894 to 896 instead of 900, depending on reasonable deadzone values). So I reset the ER deadzone to 0, and set a deadzone in Windows (X52) Control Panel... that fixed it. The MouseX/MouseY "ministick" on the throttle also needed a small deadzone (drifted a little).

A persistant problem with the "slider" on the throttle... in the ER axes test, the slider (Axis 4 in ER) acts OK from the middle all the way to the maximum (rightwords) position on the slide, as indicated by the ER axis presentation for Axis 4. But going to the left, at some point close to minimum it suddenly jumps to the middle. Then as you slowly move it from the minimum towards the right a little bit, it suddenly jumps from the middle to the "proper" position (close to minimum, leftwords). It doesn't seem to matter where I set the deadzone for the slider in the Saitek control panel, and in the control panel, the slider seems to act perfectly. ER just seems to have a problem interpreting THAT axis. Its not that important, because I can't think of what I would use the slider control for anyway, but if you or Vice or someone can shed light on this....

So other than that its working perfectly, I just need to sit down and plan a profile on paper (at first), prioritizing what commands to assign, and where to assign them.

One little neat thing occured to me already while I was re-familiarizing my self with the button numbers in the control panel. The trigger (first click) is "Fire / Button 1". Pull it all the way back past click 2, and Button 15 (what Saitek calls "Second Trigger) is ALSO activated along with Button One. It is a perfect thing to equate to the 'N' key to switch Primary Weapons in combat (as long as one practices control, and doesn't squeeze the trigger too far back inadvertantly). That way one can switch between Beam+Particle, Beam only, and Particle only very quickly while shooting (with a little practice).

[Edited on 1-21-2009 by Storm]

Post by **Vice** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 4:01 am

A persistant problem with the "slider" on the throttle... in the ER axes test, the slider (Axis 4 in ER) acts OK from the middle all the way to the maximum (rightwords) position on the slide, as indicated by the ER axis presentation for Axis 4. But going to the left, at some point close to minimum it suddenly jumps to the middle. Then as you slowly move it from the minimum towards the right a little bit, it suddenly jumps from the middle to the "proper" position (close to minimum, leftwords). It doesn't seem to matter where I set the deadzone for the slider in the Saitek control panel, and in the control panel, the slider seems to act perfectly. ER just seems to have a problem interpreting THAT axis. Its not that important, because I can't think of what I would use the slider control for anyway, but if you or Vice or someone can shed light on this....

That's actually ok, the game is reacting to max tolerance limits of an input signal, which can vary between control devices and axis channels (some channels pick up rotaries, toggle switches, or staged buttons, so the system needs to be able to adapt to all kinds of input signals). What you see in the menu is just a visual representation of how the game is managing the signal, in the game it will auto-adapt to the larger needed range of movement if the minimum tolerane range is exceeded and it will 'lock in' that way. The menu shows all adaptations in case you need to see them visually for other control input signals. So don't worry about the switch in movement ranges as that disappears in the game.

Storm · Post by **Storm** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 6:08 am

Vice;

Re: Slider / Axis 4.

Very good then....

At this point I don't know what I would use it for. As I understand it, in Flight Sims most people use the "Slider" as a "Flap Control".

The "X Rotation" and "Y Rotation" knobs on the throttle = same thing, just no use for them (that I can think of).

-----

It's actually pretty amazing, basically I wouldn't even need to run the Saitek SST or have an active profile (except for one small thing)... I've been playing around with the bindings; deleting ALL the default ones from within ER (except for Fire Primary and Fire Secondary), and then just starting over from scratch, assigning buttons like crazy.

For the Joystick Hat setting, I selected ON; because that is the shiny kind-of smoothish hat on the X52 Joystick - not as useful for the Strafe controls, but easy to use for viewing. I clicked on the Strafe commands in the Control Configuration Menu, and used the *throttle* hat - it was "easy as pie". The throttle hat is a more logical place for them anyway.

For the rest, I'm just experimenting and trying them out. This will be easy, the hard part is in deciding what to program.

One small thing, the Mouse Wheel on the Throttle is too sensitive. I can't really control zooming in and out in the NavMap. SO, I will probably have to create a profile within SST just to lower the wheel sensivity. I think I will also *boost* the ministick (MouseX, MouseY) a little, I think I want it to move a little faster on the screen.

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Which Control Device Do You Play Evochron With?

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