I feel I'm missing something here. (Feedback thread!)

[Jack Dandy]

Completely agree with Ghostwizard.
A variety of activities doesn't seem as attractive if there aren't reasons for participating in them while keeping the sense of challenge and accomplishment.

(I've started playing Elite lately by the way- it was released 4 before I was even born! But it's still interesting to see just how much impact it had on the genre )

EDIT: I love Xing's planet-diver and hollow cave ideas, too.
You could make it so you can switch from space to atmospheric shields. They'll allow higher speed maneuvering when in a planet's atmosphere, but will be far less durable then the space shield when it comes to absorbing weapon fire.
And searching planet's caves for treasures/credits/info/whatever could also feel really rewarding IMO.


[Edited on 5-13-2011 by Jack Dandy]

[xingbing1]

I like what ghost said about different systems, that sounds good

[Jack Dandy]

Also agree with MMagio, credit penalty for dying would also be welcome.

Honestly, I found myself self-destructing after almost every failed mission, to avoid a rep penalty.

This would keep players on their toes, while making them appreciate what they have.

[SeeJay]

Love the idea of some kind of penalty. You got to gain something if you stay alive,
compared to beeing killed.

[Jack Dandy]

Another thing- I think the asteroid caves have the potential to be far more interesting than simple games of CTF.
These kind of dark enclosed areas could make for some really hair-raising situations, if utilized properly.

EDIT: I'm feeling I did a bit too much complaining, so here's a list of things I DO love in the game:

-Obviously, the open-world aspect.
-Flight/Combat System is VERY fun, especially with high-agility fighters.
-The music is freakin' great. Epic, in a good way.
-I tried playing Arvoch Conflict, and you DEFINITELY made quite a progress, programming-wise. Better FPS, far sharper graphics, and lots of other improvments since then.
-Love the HUD! It might sound a bit trivial, but I'm an absolute sucker for detailed cockpits, especially when they're so functional.


[Edited on 5-14-2011 by Jack Dandy]

[TGS]

Ok first off I want to say that I know a lot of you know me as a pretty loud voice towards the failings of this game and that probably draw's a level of distain for my posts at times I think this has been the first real thread I have seen that actually brings up and addresses some of the core issues of this game. Pretty much every other thread has gotten various feedback but never actually gets acknowledged openly as well... accurate. This community is so tight-knit and behind Vice that often people jump in the defense of Vice and the game for all the wrong reasons. Some want to protect Vice, some want to protect the game. Some simply don't want change of any kind. I am just saying this to clear some air for what I'm about to say.

I post the way I post not to bad mouth Vice or the game but to challenge him to think outside the box he himself has created and that so many people so loudly defend.

I think the biggest problem that has come about in this game is that while Vice has done heaps for the game post-release but I can't help but feel like this game is in a feature freeze. As though new ships, guns, equipment, options, planets are never actually going to be added to this game. Which is ultimately what I think needs to really happen. First off one thing needs to be addressed that has come up many many times. Money sinks. There simply aren't enough ways to spend money in this game. Spending money is part of the day to day life we enjoy now. So it's kinda hard to imagine that you wouldn't need to do the same thing in Evochron. Yes there are fee's taken out every so often but those only apply if you actually save your game.

Also there is nothing really big and awesome to spend your money on. How cool would it be to save 100,000,000 credits on a massive supercarrier that served no other purpose than being your own private carrier. Players need something to work for be it defined by the game or in their own heads but in a game like this it is really hard to define your own goals because really the only two obvious goals are make money and attain rank. Exploration doesn't really have a point to it outside of personal gratification.

Anyway funny enough most of the stuff I've said in the past has been covered by others in posts on this thread but one question I really have to pose to Vice just to confirm what everyone else says but thus far we have no proof on.

Is this game going to see new "game" features? IE not bug fixes not control scheme changes not balance changes but actual FEATURES like additional ships. The ability to fly more ships the ability to build more deployables, more missions more npc interaction. Things of that nature.

Edit: Also one thing I was thinking about a few days ago but silly me forgot to put in here. What would be awesome is unique fleets that occasionally spawn in the game world that actually persist and fly around the game universe causing trouble and you can go to a station or planet to get information on the whereabouts of the nearest mobilized hostile fleet. But this would not be like other threats and would not be directly tied to missions it would simply be a fairly large capital ship fleet escorted by enough fighters to make for an interesting fight. If approached in multiplayer for each additional player an additional set of ships could jump in to assist the enemy fleet to balance out. This should be stronger and harder to fight than traditional fleets. I think some people need a challenge

[Edited on 5-14-2011 by TGS]

[gh0stwizard]

TGS says smart things at the same time wants to get the game in the future, namely his own. I'm old-school player. And in this case, I do not understand why we need new ships, weapons and stuff? This is not a MMORPG. Good balance in the games achieved a very complex way. Any innovation is usually destroys this balance. Now I see about 20 ships, which are unique and balanced. There is no such ship, which was the best. It all depends on the skill. I like those ships that are already there. We still say that after adding 10 new ships, people feel that they are not enough. Then he adds a further 10 and still not enough. I think sooner or later it will hurt the game.
Mission in these games they play the most unimportant part. Because it is a good mission includes the plot. Any story has an end. It breaks down the current concept of the game.
I agree about the NPC. But here we must all think very competently. In other games realized unsuccessful communication with the NPC. For example, they say one phrase and tighter, sometimes changing the location, which they say. Sooner or later it's annoying. I have no ready solution, unfortunately.

I suppose, Vice itself will draw the right conclusions from this topic. How many people, so many opinions.

P.S. Hello thetiebers! Glad to meet you.

[Jack Dandy]

I'll have to agree with Ghostwizard again on this one.

The current choice of ships and costumization is pretty much perfect.
In my opinion, What the game really needs right now is simple polishing for almost every activity.
Except combat, it's great as it is

[TGS]

While you are correct in saying that I want to get the game in the future, I wouldn't call it my future. I don't play the game and haven't for quite some time because once you've seen it all there really isn't much else to it. It's like the GTA series. Once you beat the story you have heaps you can do but how often do we load it up and do it? Not often because there isn't anything pulling us back to it.

Unfortunately I think a lot of people forsake change for the fear that change will bring imbalance or will somehow mess up the harmony that exists in the game. I have played A LOT of games and I have actually worked on several in terms of balancing and things appearing "balanced" only appear balanced because no attempt has been made at increasing the ruleset. Now I could actually go on a rant about how the game isn't as balanced as people seem to think but I don't like to fling mud for the sake of flinging mud. I only say what I say to bring constructive albeit forward opinions. I would very much like to get into this game but it simply lacks the depth that other games have. I say this mainly because once you've played the considerably short story/quest. You've seen it all. There is nothing more to see. Playing regularly doesn't yield much more fun for me personally because there's no risk there's no real reward there's pretty much just the flying around and shooting/killing things or pvping with friends or chatting. The game simply needs more and I'm not the only one that thinks that. Many of you are old school (And funny enough I've been watching/playing the series for quite some time myself) but even the old schoolers I've noticed are mostly just going through the motions. Once you've reached the highest rank and have so much money its rediculous what else do you do that you haven't done 100 times?

That sort of feeling really can only be fixed with new features. It doesn't even have to come in the form of new ships. Though when I say new ships I don't mean simply slap in new hulls I mean new ship TYPES new options stuff like that. As far as the "Once you add 10 more you'll have to add another 10 and another 10" that is simply false logic. Adding ships, guns, devices at any rate doesn't mean you have to continue adding. Hell he could add 2 ships and never add another it's his game that is his choice. But to say that the game is perfect as it is and does not need additions is also not right enough people have made that pretty clear.

I have to say do people doubt Vice's ability to create more content and balance it? He's done a pretty good job with what he's put in thus far I don't understand why adding more of anything would hurt the game. At some point or another I have seen just about every person on here mention that the game could use more of something yet when push comes to shove there's always someone to advocate for lack of change. It's almost like you want the game to stay static and to never develop beyond backend options.

Seriously is that what people want? Hell a very very very very simple change that could be made is some sort of optional penalty when you die in say the form of a "hardcore" pilot. Say you lose your ship/equipment and it automatically saves on death and sticks you in a basic frame. Point is features can come in many forms and they don't have to make/break/change balance to make the game better.

In closing I have to say I'm rather offended that people would think I am only thinking of myself when I make posts because quite frankly there are several suggestions I've gotten behind that I don't particularly like but were good suggestions. Hell I think any change to the game could benefit. Hell it could be added and completely suck but you never know until you try. I guess thats why I had to ask the question. Is this game on a feature/content freeze? If so that's fine. At least then people will know not to put out suggestions for additional content. As I've said I would love to continue playing the game but the fact that I can always save/reload without any penalty what so ever really kills it for me. Sometimes I intentionally try to do stupid things and save the results or spend a lot of money and save the results but to be honest it's actually quite difficult to do that.

Edit: I think I'm going to bow out of this thread as I suspect I'm just going to create tension and upset people after this rant.

TGS says smart things at the same time wants to get the game in the future, namely his own. I'm old-school player. And in this case, I do not understand why we need new ships, weapons and stuff? This is not a MMORPG. Good balance in the games achieved a very complex way. Any innovation is usually destroys this balance. Now I see about 20 ships, which are unique and balanced. There is no such ship, which was the best. It all depends on the skill. I like those ships that are already there. We still say that after adding 10 new ships, people feel that they are not enough. Then he adds a further 10 and still not enough. I think sooner or later it will hurt the game.
Mission in these games they play the most unimportant part. Because it is a good mission includes the plot. Any story has an end. It breaks down the current concept of the game.
I agree about the NPC. But here we must all think very competently. In other games realized unsuccessful communication with the NPC. For example, they say one phrase and tighter, sometimes changing the location, which they say. Sooner or later it's annoying. I have no ready solution, unfortunately.

I suppose, Vice itself will draw the right conclusions from this topic. How many people, so many opinions.

P.S. Hello thetiebers! Glad to meet you.

[Edited on 5-15-2011 by TGS]

[Marvin]

As I've said I would love to continue playing the game but the fact that I can always save/reload without any penalty what so ever really kills it for me.

True. And, though I dislike loopholes, I've taken advantage of that one myself. Granted, it's convenient to clone a profile so that I can quickly get from one remote star system to another. And self-destructing does allow me to reload all those expensive missiles without paying for them. But, in the end, I miss the wracked nerves and sweaty palms that would otherwise come with jumping through your basic wormhole ... not knowing where I might end up. And spending the next two days hyper-jumping my way back to civilization.

[xingbing1]

I'm with TGS on this one - tl;dr: new features would be nice/good/needed. Because otherwise, as he says, there's nothing to draw you back to a game. It's the reason I left in the first place, I ran out of new, interesting things to do.

[gh0stwizard]

Well, let's offer to do everything as well as in the Elite. Saving only at the stations, jumping only when the radar is clear. Only to be understood that in the Elite each downed craft is money and points in the rating. So when you're knocked down 20 ships and rescue via escape pod you do not want to load save file. Otherwise you would have to destroy 20 ships. Besides escape pod dropped to the status of the system (from fugitive to clear).
Evochron has a different system, so you need to offer other options. Penalties will be useful only for those who have a lot of money, but what about beginners? Have the option to make the rating factor for the penalty. But this does not change the game. The player must play as if he lives in this world and in real life there are no options to load / save. I.e the player should be beneficial to use an escape pod. And again, I have no ready solution to this effect.

[tha_rami]

Why a good designer - such as Vice - does not add stuff for the sake of adding stuff? Because you achieve a perfect design not by adding as much as possible, you achieve it by taking away as much as possible. To call extra ships, weapons and items 'features' & to imply more of them would improve the game boggles my mind.

Sure, there's a lot that could improve - but we should be looking at what is there. The economy needs tweaking, moneysinks would be good to have. The incentive to do things now is credits, but credits aren't worth anything since they can be earned in bulk in minutes. I wouldn't be against an interface overhaul. It would be great if ships flew in patrols, escorts and the like & if the universe had a bit more breath and life to it. It would be good if there was a way to make exploration less of a random thing. I believe all of this can fit into the format & the design vision behind Evochron.

For me, the core issue in the game is a lack of penalty, yet I can only agree with Vice' choice to minimize it. The approach to the design here is that Evochron is a lone-wolf type sandbox that is formed by you, not the other way around. To be fair, though, while I stop playing every of the games after a few months, that approach of 'here is the game and now you figure out how to play it' is exactly why I love these games & continue to buy new installments.

[MMaggio]

Why Rami, so nice to hear from you! I was beginning to think you left us permanently. Please don't be such a stranger.

[xingbing1]

I'm not saying new weapons, hulls etc. will automatically make the game better. But just simply adding a new weapon on top of the banshee would bring back the 'new toy' feeling for at least a bit, and make the game more interesting. Not that just adding loads of new items is completely the way forward - there needs to be more diversity as well. Hence all of my many suggestions earlier on. Nonetheless, having some new weapons, items etc. *would improve the game*, and I'd welcome it.

Saying that perfection is achieved by removing as much as possible is completely the wrong way to go. If you want as little as possible, feel free to start herding goats somewhere as a hermit, 'cos that's what's at the end of that path. Equally, you don't want to have too much - that way lies bloat and overlap etc. Perfection is in the middle. And I think we're below that middle atm, because quite frankly even the starmaster is easy enough to get, and there are no rewards for a player who's been playing for any reasonable length of time. That's what this game needs more than anything else, more things to do after you've got fairly high up. Before you say 'build stations', 'build rank' or 'convert all systems to 'good'', then all of those things are *boring*. I'd much rather try exploring to find some cool stuff. Except, atm there is nothing cool to be found via exploring, each hidden system is much like the previous one.

tl;dr: perfection isn't removing as much as possible. There needs to be more rewards after you've got a starmaster. (i.e. more high-end stuff). Hidden systems need to have more special stuff, e.g. create maybe 20+ unique items etc. that you can *only* get in a select few hidden systems each.

[Avenger]

I tried the Banshee for a bit, it's slow fire, mediocre damage compared to it's energy use and lowsy range made me drop that cannon, a new toy is welcome but on the other hand there are many toys already in the game that are hardly used because they are kind of crappy.

Or a poor upgrade to a previous option.

A good example is the Shrike for instance.
It's supposed to be an upgrade over the Avenger but trading 15 points of agility for 15 points of armor doesn't look like a good upgrade to me.
The same goes for many of the weapons, their lack of range is the most reason players don't use them, maybe there should be some work done with the gear we already have before asking for new stuff.

[gh0stwizard]

Why a good designer - such as Vice - does not add stuff for the sake of adding stuff? Because you achieve a perfect design not by adding as much as possible, you achieve it by taking away as much as possible. To call extra ships, weapons and items 'features' & to imply more of them would improve the game boggles my mind.

There are so many things that Vice should realize that we are now dispute that it is more important. Yes, I agree that the economy is more important to me than the new ships. But I do not deny that new weapons or new quests to do. Just for me, they are less important, that's all.

Unfortunately, we can not make Vice do what we want. And I'm curious to hear his opinion on this matter. What he thinks about all this, and that's going to do. I am sure he has his own ideas and plans.

[Jack Dandy]

Taken from the official "Purchase" page..

Exploration, trading, racing, and other activities can be just as profitable as combat.

But at the current stage, compared to combat, they hardly offer any challenge or depth.

The thing I still want to see most is improving the other gameplay parts besides combat- racing, mining, and trading. When you reach the point that each of them is fun and challenging enough on their own accord, we'll have a masterpiece of a game, and I will recommend it to just about every person I know.

And if to wrap it up we'd get a non-compulsive story/quest we can take part in, it would be even better.
I mean, it's right there in the features list on the purchase page as well:

Locate beacons to follow the clues that can lead you to an amazing discovery and solve the mystery of the Vonari artifact and what happened at Arvoch. Determine your destiny with freeform gameplay.

Yet in-game, there aren't any clues to follow. Haven't seen any beacons, either.



Again- I feel I'm complaining a bit too much, but I see so much potential from the game, it's a shame to not see it used to it's fullest.
Please don't get too angry, Vice

[Avenger]

The Beacons are from Evochron Legends, not Evochron Mercenary.

[Jack Dandy]

...it's still right there on EM's purchase page, though.

Did he just copy-paste it? :/

[Avenger]

No idea, you have to ask Vice about that.

[tha_rami]

I'm not saying new weapons, hulls etc. will automatically make the game better. But just simply adding a new weapon on top of the banshee would bring back the 'new toy' feeling for at least a bit, and make the game more interesting. Not that just adding loads of new items is completely the way forward - there needs to be more diversity as well. Hence all of my many suggestions earlier on. Nonetheless, having some new weapons, items etc. *would improve the game*, and I'd welcome it.

Saying that perfection is achieved by removing as much as possible is completely the wrong way to go. If you want as little as possible, feel free to start herding goats somewhere as a hermit, 'cos that's what's at the end of that path. Equally, you don't want to have too much - that way lies bloat and overlap etc. Perfection is in the middle. And I think we're below that middle atm, because quite frankly even the starmaster is easy enough to get, and there are no rewards for a player who's been playing for any reasonable length of time. That's what this game needs more than anything else, more things to do after you've got fairly high up. Before you say 'build stations', 'build rank' or 'convert all systems to 'good'', then all of those things are *boring*. I'd much rather try exploring to find some cool stuff. Except, atm there is nothing cool to be found via exploring, each hidden system is much like the previous one.

tl;dr: perfection isn't removing as much as possible. There needs to be more rewards after you've got a starmaster. (i.e. more high-end stuff). Hidden systems need to have more special stuff, e.g. create maybe 20+ unique items etc. that you can *only* get in a select few hidden systems each.

Perfection in design IS removing as much as possible. Clutter always goes against good design & if three weapons would fulfill every role in a shooter, having 12 wouldn't make the game better - only more cluttered.

Your analogy with the hermit is really odd. If I believe a good product is a product that focuses on its core values and doesn't clutter its design vision, I should go live as a hermit? What you're suggesting is more of having a remote control with 120 buttons while the only thing it should be doing is dimming the light - something easily achieved with two buttons or even a single rotatable dimmer.

What you're indicating, to me, sounds more like you find the Starmaster not much of an optimal reward. That's where the problem is - not the lack of content but the perceived worth of it. Fixing the economy and making the Starmaster a 'trophy' of sorts would fix the problem - adding more expensive things wouldn't - and that 'new toy' feeling is just not worth the time investment of creating new content, since it'll only last for a short while and only for those who know it wasn't there to begin with.

All the (perceived) problems that have been described here aren't problems with content or the amount of it - only with the amount of roles available, their execution and the reward/punishment balance.

tl;dr: You're wrong: good design is minimalist design.

@MM Oh no, I lurk around here quite often, but my work at Vlambeer is costing me so much time that it's a hard thing to spend any times on any forums at all. Recently, I've been taking 'weekends off' from work and that allows me to jump into some discussions every now and then.

[Edited on 15-5-2011 by tha_rami]

[xingbing1]

The analogy with the hermit is me pointing out the extreme of your argument - having as little as possible.
You might want as little as possible, but that seems strange to me - would you prefer a keyboard with only 2 keys? (One to scroll throug the different inputs, one to select it.) Or to use an in-game analogy, what about all the hidden planets? Would you prefer it if they weren't there, since you don't come across them that often anyway. Why have 2 methods of cloaking? 1 would be fine. Why have 2 sets of frames? 1 set worked fine in EL. Why bother with military/civilian? Why bother having anything but the talon? Why bother playing EM, tetris has *so* much less. Heck, why tetris, or even a computer for that matter? I'm sure snap would be fine. In fact, let's not play snap, that's got way too much stuff involved in it. Just sitting there is even simpler. Perhaps that's got too much in it as well? I mean, there's people around you, they might distract you. Becoming a hermit might solve that problem though, then you'd wouldn't be distracted!
My point is, less stuff =/= better.
Not that I'm advocating filling a game with lots of stuff. As I said, that's not the right thing to do either. Perfection is in the middle. (The problem comes in defining the middle, and between different people.)


Anyway, back on topic a little more: it's not really 'perceived worth' - it's easy enough to make tonnes of money and get a starmaster relatively quickly, which is why it's not much of a trophy.
Since this is a suggestion thread, I'm going to repost my previous list-of-stuff-to-add, for anybody who cba to read the previous page

-*loads* of new equipment, but say you could only find certain pieces in certain places, not just the general special-stuff-in-hidden-planets.
-Change the fairly linear nature of ship components, make certain ship components only available in certain places.
-Alliance/Fed frames only available in those territories.
-Wormholes that spit you out randomly near uncharted planets.
-Bars you can go into to pick up info on uncharted planets.
-Have stations other than the trade station have more effect.
-Make items that could cost >10,000,000 credits, heck >100,000,000 or even higher.
-Ultra-rare frames that are perhaps both quick but also with fairly good shields, or especially high assembly, or high allocation-points (CMs, crew etc, those points, whatever they're called)
-Other alien races, some friendly or not? Choose between races???
-Stars that take up an actual amount of space, like several sectors in diameter.
-Special shields for 'stardiving'.
-Artifacts littered around, doing special things like teleportation, giving special equipment (once only?), blasting stuff etc.
-Make capitals truly powerful (i.e. several fighters needed to take one down, minimum. Even for eclipse.). This would encourage fleets, allying etc.
-Customising ship to have two particle cannons, or 3 lasers (large frames have more options)
-Underwater cities, allow spaceships to go underwater with the right upgrade.
-different looking ciites, some with special interior areas to dock etc.
-Mega-stations, which you can fly around in.
-Rare ores and minerals hidden in the giant asteroids
-More weapons, shields, missiles etc. (like more equipment, earlier)
-More things to do with the backstory, hidden beacons that say stuff about it, stuff in the news.
-More quests to follow
-Player-created quests (would be especially good in mp)
-Underground cities?
-Hollow planets? (tunnel leading into them)
-Stuff in the hollow planets (cities, containers, wormholes etc.)
-Giant living creatues, maybe some kind of alien skywhale or something living in gas giants (something anyway)
-Floating islands in gas giants - have the islands float around? (whilst staying facing outwards, of course)
-tunnels and stuff in said floating islands!
-New ships, able to fly capital ships??
-Diplomatic relations - have stuff in the news, which affects the universe, about e.g. tensions between different factions, war breaking out, espionage, perhaps you could become an official diplomat on one side's behalf!
-Make money not so easy to get hold of.[/spoiler]

[Marvin]

...it's still right there on EM's purchase page, though. Did he just copy-paste it? :/

Very likely. Someday Vice might release instructions on how to create a custom universe for Mercenary ... similar to the instructions he released for Legends. The format is different but the option to add those beacons back into the game still exists. Which could extend the "play-life" of Mercenary far beyond its shelf life. Similar to how so many other games manage to live well into their bargain-bin sell days.

[Avenger]

You are right xingbing1, the Starmaster is not a real trophy anymore, the real trophy these days are the late military ships and you have to work to get to those.

I don't see much addition to even more equipment/weapons since over half the equipment/weapons already in game now are never used.
I am fairly sure that even half the ships in this game are never used either so what's the point in adding more of em?
It's better to edit what is already in the game rather then add more to the pile.

And what the hell would add to the game to fly capital ships?
Seriously, what it this fixation to fly a lumbering piece of metal that cannot even make a 180 degree turn without getting blown to dust before that?
You cannot control it's weapons, you cannot realy fly combat, all you can do is fly it like a cruise ship and that's pretty much it.
In order to make it work for 1 person to fly a capital ship would mean all other functions are automated so please explain to me how that adds to anything?

You might as well play This game instead of EM if you like opperating big ships.