exasperated and frustrated

[reaper2040]

I really did like the Hitchhikers Guide because it was cool to use, had filters so you could prevent spoilers and was really great to just run on a laptop on the desk as if you had a separate "cartographers station". If the universe file remains encoded, we will probably never see such tool for Mercenary. That's a shame, but not the end of the world.

I rather like the idea of progressive hints in the news console or perhaps AI trading dialogs like stash locations or contracts that reward with hidden location coordinates. I also think that such a large sandbox has room for a little denser seeding of goodies, as has been suggested.

At the end of the day, I have to think that there is a solution to be had that adds to the game experience without offending those that want to find stuff via blind searching or allows someone to cherry pick stuff in SP for a couple hours and then jump into MP fully loaded with all the goodies.

[Rush]

I didn't get the point about inflated egos...

However, I think the solution already (nearly) exists: SeeJay is preparing a website where we can post our discoveries and information. That adds to the game interaction between players and cooperation. If you are not among those who want to hold back information, just help SeeJay build a map. This is MP, too

[Ravenfeeder]

Well said Mike. How the hell can anyone criticise something they have never participated in? Daft!

[Ravenfeeder]

Blackthorne, you miss out on a helluva lot of the game by sticking to SP. I've found out where secret planets are, and the rift space gate, not by exploring, but, by using me wee bit of brain.

I was wanting to keep this to myself, but, as many seem a tad lost, I'll share. Only works in MP. You have someone call out: "Whooppee, I've found ...... hidden planet" hit the tilde key to see where they are, and, bingo, you have the location. Or, again, you can hit the tilde key and see someone at a location that isn't on the quadrant map - wheyhey - you have another location.

Work smart, not hard!

[Marvin]

Like Legends, Mercenary has a text-like "systemdata" file. It can be modded by anyone ... changing the standardized planetary descriptions so as to add "hints" to where secret planets and gates and wormholes can be found. Just mention the local ones, of course ... corresponding to the system in question.

[Rush]

Originally posted by Ravenfeeder
Or, again, you can hit the tilde key and see someone at a location that isn't on the quadrant map - wheyhey - you have another location.

So I'm clearly not the only one who thought about that :D:D:D

[Ravenfeeder]

Great minds think alike!

[Rush]

Originally posted by Ravenfeeder
Great minds think alike!

Ahahah

However, as long as players can freely organize, sharing information is not a problem. SeeJay's site already has the location of some important hidden systems, so the problem is probably already solved.

All this thanks to MP and cooperation with other kind and loyal players

[Marvin]

Yes, having players search for hidden systems and then posting their findings is much less a cheat than tearing into the "universe" file and digging out all the secrets therein.

[Aures]

Here is a hint to make finding things on your own easier:

Follow the system borders.

I am just starting out serious exploring so what follows is preliminary but the principle is still sound. Whenever you are out in the middle of nowhere your nav console probably has a system name that is letter-number-number-number. That name probably refers to a planet in a hidden system. The hidden systems I have found have a number of planets each in their own "system" as far as the console is concerned and those extend for a fair way beyond the hidden system. So the hidden system is at the intersection of a number of letter-number-number-number console "systems". Therefore, you can find it by following the border between two systems. It is much quicker than mapping the whole thing. If you can circumnavigate it completely without running into anything then any objects it contains must be further in unless you missed something. If you have already mapped where the edge of the system is you have a good idea what area it could be contained in. If it is not at the border, maybe it is in the centre.

While you are travelling around take note of the system name in your nav console. Even if you are on the way somewhere else rather than exploring you can start to compile a list of targets along with the general location so you start to get an idea what is out there and where it is long before you go exploring.

Definitely a lot more productive than just picking a direction and staring at the screen hoping an object will appear while you are in autopilot.

If you want to get serious you should start a spreadsheet (or a csv style list in a text document in a pinch) noting what sector you are in and the system. Keeping track of where you have already explored stops you wandering about aimlessly not knowing whether you have already explored an area. You can see objects in a 15x15x15 sector cube around you. Once you have been to a sector you know whether there is anything in the cube around it or not.

Of course that won't rule out hidden containers, but I'm not sure how many there are out in the middle of nowhere in a random sector far from landmarks.

There are two ways to find things in Mercenary, yourself or get someone else to tell you. Whether that is in-game during a multiplayer session or via a website someone else has posted a location to is immaterial. Maybe there will be more explicit hints put into the game, but for me the name of the system I am in fits the role of a hint pretty well. There are definitely ways for the more casual player to find things themselves, but the reward vs time spent ratio is pretty low compared to other things you could do with limited free time.

[Marvin]

Good advice. I ran into a number of oddly-named systems while testing the limits of multiple jumps ... going from Sapphire to Sierra on autopilot.

[MiaZ]

I actually enjoy the intrigue the rumors and secrets.
To me this is one of the things that makes these games so good.

I do see the point though in a strictly single player game it may be hard or even next to impossible to find such things like the gate to riftspace if the player has limited time ( not played Legends or previous starwraith games ) and no access to the forum.

But there are some secrets that I feel should Not be included in any of these cartography webpages.

Maybe there could be some more clues for hidden planets but please don't give everything away too quick, there will be no incentive left to explore.

[Atollski]

With MiaZ, DaveK and Reaper on this one - I'm an X3 Terran Conflict convert and have only discovered the Starwraith a couple of weeks before Mercenary was released. X3 became boring pretty quickly once all the sectors were explored. So far, have found no hidden systems or planets, and seeing that there is a massive amount of stuff to find is pretty awesome. Once you have discovered all the stations, systems, containers and planets then have the best ships with the best equipment, what do you do then?

That's why I think the fun is in exploring and finding stuff. Riftspace, no idea what or where it is, bring it on!

As for MP, the only regret is not joining in as soon as Mercenary was installed...

[Von Paulus]

Originally posted by MiaZ
Maybe there could be some more clues for hidden planets but please don't give everything away too quick, there will be no incentive left to explore.

I understand that. But you don't have to look if you don't want.

[Rush]

Well, remember that SeeJay's website comes veeeery late. The locations of many systems, planets etc. are written in the Legends' guide. Explicitly, with all the coordinates and everything
However, implementing new systems is "just" a matter of writing a .txt file. It's probably not easy and not quick but it can be done. We explored too many systems? We create new ones.

And as Von Paulus and other say, you don't have to look if you don't want to

[DaveK]

What is the address of SeeJay's website? When I find something I would like to contribute!

[Von Paulus]

http://evochron.junholt.se/

[DaveK]

Thanks - it is going to be a very cool site!

[Gnou]

If I understand the frustration, I really miss the point of the main arg :
"Let hidden things noted somewhere, people who want to explore just have to not read it"

The arg can be simply returned :
"If you dont want to explore, just do without hidden things"

As the game describe says, there are hidden system... hidden, there are.
I fully agree that the lack of clue make exploring very hard, but as other said there are some "logical method" to do this.
I wish to see some indirect clue that can be collected InGame, but not the location itself.

What would be the point in this case ?
Only having access to this hidden content ?
Without any other thing to do than reach x,y,z coords ?
I really dont see the interest by this way, even from a SP point of vue.


p.s. The only "hidden planet" I know is the one given by the quest...

[Edite le 10-8-2010 par Gnou]

[Von Paulus]

Originally posted by Gnou
I fully agree that the lack of clue make exploring very hard, but as other said there are some "logical method" to do this.
I wish to see some indirect clue that can be collected InGame, but not the location itself.

What "logical method" are you referring?

Originally posted by Gnou
What would be the point in this case ?
Only having access to this hidden content ?
Without any other thing to do than reach x,y,z coords ?
I really dont see the interest by this way, even from a SP point of vue.

Personally I too prefer the indirect clue method. It would be much more fun and after all more logical. I'd go to the point of creating a way that you'd have to pay for the tips. That would add a nice feature to the game and would balance the whole issue in terms of gameplay.

[Gnou]

Message original : Von Paulus
What "logical method" are you referring?

Like Aures last post describe by example.
As other said before, traveling between systems is generaly a good way.
Also I cannot confirm that ship traffic can be a clue, but I noticed that for the quest planet.

[gietek]

Originally posted by Gnou
If I understand the frustration, I really miss the point of the main arg :
"Let hidden things noted somewhere, people who want to explore just have to not read it"

The arg can be simply returned :
"If you dont want to explore, just do without hidden things"

Rubbish! There is no implication between the above arguments. For 99% of all games that have hidden locations, easter eggs, secrets there is at least one guide that will reveal all of them. Not mentioning all those 'give all' and 'god mode' cheats. People want to enjoy the whole game and not just a part of it.

Originally posted by Gnou
As the game describe says, there are hidden system... hidden, there are.
I fully agree that the lack of clue make exploring very hard, but as other said there are some "logical method" to do this.

And what is it exaclty? I mean what is your method.
Checking the borders?
Are all the hidden items/places on the borders of systems?
Traffic?
How do we know that the "traffic" is related to the hidden systems?
Do we all have to sit in front of our computers for X hours with a piece of paper marking dots and coordinates? That sounds insane. I mean I like games but come on!

Originally posted by Gnou
What would be the point in this case ?
Only having access to this hidden content ?
Without any other thing to do than reach x,y,z coords ?
I really dont see the interest by this way, even from a SP point of vue.

That's why we are saying here that if you are not interested in spoilers DO NOT READ them. Why should you be interested in my gameplay anyway? It's me who will have the game 'spoiled' not you.

[Aesir Rising]

Originally posted by Ravenfeeder
Well said Mike. How the hell can anyone criticise something they have never participated in? Daft!

One of the amazing things we can do is plan for or even predict an outcome based on incomplete and indirect knowledge.

You don't have to be a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

Anyway, so Seejay has that site mentioned in this and other topics. It provides a community repository of knowledge, akin to THGTTG. But it will also necessarily contain spoilers. If there was a local client that could be used to record information that could then be uploaded to that site, a player that wants to know just the stuff s/he found out can *still* contribute to the overall community repo by uploading his/her stuff. But can use the local client to retrieve data.

That's the thing I'd be interested in.. The game is new to me, so things aren't routine yet. I'd like a tool that makes it convenient and easy for me to record info about places I've been, things I've seen, etc., items I've traded, etc. Notepad doesn't cut it. But I also don't want a data dump from 300 contributing pilots.


[Edited on 10-8-2010 by Aesir Rising]

[Aures]

Traffic is not an indicator of systems in my experience. The universe seems to be stuffed full of ships (ie the spawn probability for any sector is not that low). But it might depend on your reputation somewhat. I have a feeling some systems generate more traffic in them than others. But, systems are big and the traffic gives no real indication where you are in relation to what the system name refers to.

I don't know that systems at borders is a universal rule, but I just found one by the method I posted. The two hidden systems I have found (and a lot of others judging by the number of systems with similar names) tend to be made up of a bunch of planets with letter-number-number-number (lnnn) names in sectors with that name as the system name (lnnns).

Here is a more step by step breakdown of my method:
If you find the border between two lnnns you can jump to a corner of the nav map and try to alternate between systems. You get a rough idea of where the border is.
Follow that until you find yourself in a different lnnns to either of the two you have been following. You now have a rough idea of the intersection of three (or more) lnnns are.
Jump around a little to get a rough idea how many lnnns intersect and what direction the borders head off in.
Choose one of your two original lnnns to follow.
Continue following the border of that lnnns with a new lnnns until again you encounter a new lnnns.
Poke around the intersection a little bit then continue following the border of the same lnnns you have been.
Keep repeating the process and eventually you might (probably? always? always if following the border of a lnnns?) end up at a hidden system where a bunch of lnnns intersect.
After you explore the hidden system, pick a border between two planets (but probably not the one you followed previously) and head out on it in the same manner.
When the border first splits start circumnavigating the lnnns you have just run into.
Continue circumnavigating the new lnnns using the same process as earlier until you find the next hidden system.
Repeat the entire process until you have had enough or run into known space.

I have not quite finished exploring the first hidden system I found with this method yet (the first hidden system I found was just by starting from a known system, picking a direction and travelling in a straight line) so I have not done the later steps. But it is generally what I plan to do until I know what save I will be continuing my main profile with.

The star in the centre for both my systems just had the system name of one of the closest planets. There are probably named stars out there where the system works differently. I have yet to run into anything but lnnns though (and you find a lot in the process of finding one hidden system that aren't part of the hidden system you find) and I am proceeding on the basis that other hidden systems work like the ones I have found.

The hypothesis I am using is that all of space is broken down into systems by some method and that hidden systems are at the intersection of many lnnns. If you follow the border between two lnnns you will quickly run into an intersection. Lots of intersections are empty anti-nodes but somewhere along the border of the system you are following there is a hidden system or node.

It is the complete opposite of a random search. More like systematic hunting. It took 171 jumps from my starting position in the middle of a known system. I just picked a known system and a direction and headed out in a straight line on autopilot.
26 jumps to get out of the named system.
30 jumps to traverse a lnnns in a straight line.
19 jumps following the border of that lnnns with another to an anti-node.

In future I will do those steps the same and follow the border between two lnnns rather than between a named and lnnns. At that point I hadn't fully developed my point by point method and I started following the new lnnns into the border between it and another new lnnns. Good move as it turns out because the node I found had both of the new lnnns planets but not the first two lnnns. From that point on I stuck to the border of the 4th lnnns and followed my point by point method. I ran into 4 more lnnns on the way to the node that were not part of the node. I guess I pretty much started on the opposite border from where the node was.

96 jumps along the border of the 4th lnnns to its node. That includes extra jumps for messing around at any anti-node for future purposes.

I entered every system name and sector into a spreadsheet while I was going. You don't have to do that (I am making my own territory/survey map after all) but if you are jumping around it is very easy to forget where you have just been. Find some system for keeping track of where you have been. You can use the in game maplog to plot anti-nodes and remove them when you have found all the hidden systems with borders there. Anything that works for you, the promise of a picture with streaks everywhere I have travelled motivates me to log every sector. It also almost perfectly fills the time between jumps, makes a lot of blackness less boring.

I now have a good lead on a bunch of hidden systems (apparently there is another one closer to the vicinity of my straight line dash) and I know when I run into the border between them and the ones in the node I have found so far. I could have used my lucky first find to get a really good idea where to search for neighbouring nodes, but I started again in a different part of space. My first bit of surveying was quite systematic and boring. Took a little while to realise if you just mapped the borders and found the node it is a bit pointless mapping the rest of the lnnns around it. It is also a lot more engaging than the autopilot.

I will still travel long distances on autopilot. But now only when initially setting out or going to and from places I know without a gate. I will log them and get a picture that is a bunch of lines overlaid on a partial web of system borders.

I plan on doing quite a bit of exploring but the above procedure only took 2-3 hours. I could probably have found the node for the first or second lnnns I came across in less than an hour if I didn't poke around anti-nodes. I'll test that out later by going back to the first anti-node and following my method (I will subtract time for exploring anti-nodes, breaks etc).

I might post some specifics on tactics for following borders later, but I am still playing around with that. Basically I jump to a corner of the nav map and then to a corner perpendicular to the first direction (not along the same direction of my first jump or back to where I just jumped from).

[reaper2040]

Yes, having players search for hidden systems and then posting their findings is much less a cheat than tearing into the "universe" file and digging out all the secrets therein.

I have just visited SeeJay's website and while it is very useful, it is unfortunately an "all or nothing" option; I can either have almost no information about hidden items or the exact coordinates. To be honest, SeeJay's site is much easier to use than mining the universe file and far more spoiler prone than the Hitchhikers Guide.

I think that a more robust in-game clue system would be much more fun. Trading for information would also be cool and could be a great money sink. Imagine random trade encounters where you could buy information about hidden places. Very accurate information could cost tens or even hundreds of millions (this would ensure that players cannot get the best information too early in the game). Less accurate or "ball-park" information would be much cheaper.

Again, I do not know what is practical for Vice to implement and not unbalance the game play, but I really have to think that there is a way to enhance game play by exploiting the nature of exploration and providing players a means to gather information through trade, contracts, combat or perhaps even treasure maps stashed in hidden containers or as part of the cargo left behind after battle. Many of the RPG and sandbox games I have played manage revealing secret locations in these fashions. These are not considered "cheats" it is the reward for an accomplishment or an expensive item to purchase.

I hope we can collectively settle on an appropriate way to implement some method as this is the sort of thing that keeps people interested and playing because they know they are on the path to a discovery, rather than just praying to stumble into one.