[Spoiler] IMG quest, reward concerns.

[DaveK]

Hi

I thought I'd add my two penneth worth! Games are a leisure activity for fun (a point sometimes forgotten)

The SP and MP versions of the game have a fundamental difference in that SP is a true sandbox (my universe, my rules, my adventures) and in MP "cheating" has an effect on others in that my hard earned Raven frame and Class 3 bits stand no chance against the billionaire in his Starmaster

In SP you can "cheat"(?) and use the internet to find out about hidden systems, goodies and lucrative trade deals and then spend a few hours (or minutes apparently) making billions. In MP it apparently isn't cheating when you are given money (there's a money sink!), and juicy info by more experienced players - I've not quite grasped why one is cheating and the other isn't!

If, as I do, you think that the idea of a free form game is to explore and solve puzzles (including how to dispach that hostile as effectively as possible), then letting others give you the answer is self defeating - it's like buying a walkthrough guide to more linear games like Freelancer and following it without question. Admittedly you might want/need a hint now and again, since there is limited time to play (for most of us anyway) - but that's partly what the forum is for

The IMG quest (discovered after lots of mining - damn!) has given me a reason to try out various career options - before I read about it I was using mining to get enough money to upgrade to explore with some safety outside Sapphire! It isn't much fun to have to shuttle backwards and forwards to buy a ship that can last long enough in, say, Onyx to allow some real skill development in combat, or exploration to find better trading deals - hence the mining. As it happens I've delivered the satellite and failed the first race, but it was fun! I'll do better the next time or the time after!

Whilst mining (boring) I have learned to use the Nav screen and the basic flying skills to dock at a city or station, but not combat skills, trade nouse and slick piloting skills (for example as required for passing through the racing rings (a tube surely?)). These are the sills that might keep me alive in the wider spaces of Evochron. Once I've got the ship upgraded, I can start the fun bit - exploring. After being side tracked by IMG!

My solution to the "cheating" issue is fairly simple - I decided what would be reasonable to expect in a 25th Century space based place (in SP it's my universe after all!). I decided that "OS maps" of the systems, some basic system info (level, factions, rumours) would be widely available - Why just a quadrant map - if the list of gate connections is available surely a list of planets, stations, nebulae and asteroid fields would be. So I researched and used a couple of sources to get that info - nothing about hidden systems, planets, stations or containers - they are classified by the Vice as hidden for a reason and I'm looking forward to the fun of finding them. If I had found IMG first I would have developed flying skills, nav skills etc whilst earning the rewards to upgrade ready to explore the wider universe

As to buying everything too easily - I don't think that any frame will carry everything I want (need!) so compromises must be made - better shields or faster engine or nippier wings?. I can't get the bigger frames without going into some dodgy space and I won't survive there if I haven't developed the necessary skills. I never liked "flying brick mode" in a flight sim, but it was great in the WWII air battle sims where flying and fighting were the things I enjoyed and starting again after every crash landing didn't let me advance into bigger and better fights! Evochron for me has combat as a part, not the whole reason for playing

So, basically, if easy money offends, don't go and get it - make it in a way that feels right to you. However, if some people want to be billionaires then that's their business, not mine!

As to cost free risks, I suppose it depends on whether you want to explore freely or sweat your way to a safe haven where you can save. I suppose if we want realism, it should be one life and then you would have to restart the game. I save before a risky manouvre if I don't have the confidence I have the skills to succeed the very first time - that way if I have to start again, I don't have to do twenty things I've already done to get back to the point where I'm being challenged (and hence having fun!)

But again, if risk free irritates, then only save when you are in a station or on a planet or back in Sapphire on your annual holidays - it's up to you. If you are fragged, then respawn and jettison whatever equipment you think is an appropriate loss for the pounding you took - it's your universe and your choice

So please don't try to force your ideas on what would improve the game on others - inform us of your ideas of the pros and cons of some of the rules we have - I found the discussion both interesting and stimulating and as a result of your comments I'm going to "fine" myself for being trashed as a way of adding that frisson of excitement and making the risk a bit more real, rather than just losing some (valuable because it's limited) playing time.

In terms of MP, I haven't yet tried it - still too much of a novice, but I assume that building your own clan corner of the universe would be as good a cash sink as the Millenium Dome or the Olympics. I also assume that the raison d'etre for MP is to team up with other or PvP fight. Both can have agreed "rules" since MP is a joint universe. I suppose that I will need millions to survive in MP since no-one is going to want to play with someone who explodes prettilly every few minutes who who isn't there to cover their six! But if you are the first to raise this issue then it suggests that the MP fans like it as it is - and that's their choice. It's a bit of a red herring to say that others agree but are silent - if but if you are right and they exist, then you can get together and create your own sandbox MP with your rules in force.

I love it as it is. I'm very happy playing within my own self-imposed rules wrt to making money to be able to explore and I don't want to have risks imposed on me that would mean losing time and having to repeat sequences just because I'm outfaced (ahhh - the first experience of Onyx (and the last for a while!) or taken by surprise, or my reflexes aren't what they were 40 years ago!

Evochron Mercenary is the most recent in a very long line of ever better sims(from what I can see from the reviews and comments, and my experiences in Legends) and that suggests to me that the Vice is doing things right and pleasingt he fan base. Leave it to politicians to force feed us what they "know" we need!.

Anyway, enjoy the experience - have good luck - find many interesting and lucrative things and perhaps start a charity foundation to help newbie's and past their sell by date mercenaries. As soon as I feel ready I hope to see you out there!

[Whytephyre]

You are missing my point.... I was saying that money opens doors, creates opportuniries for you to chang the world (or universe) as you see fit. The starmaster is cool, but as i said i want a proverbial space ferrari & space mansion & carrier to boot. Something to spend my 200 mil on would be good, or maybe if fleet members cost a bit more to hire...

I have no objection to gathering info or money however one sees fit, i would not describe these as being 'broken' or needing improvement, however i agree with some of the previous posts that after a certain point (lets say 100 mil), making more money becomes largely pointless other than to increase one's pilot rating & therefore one's pay per contract. Seeing as how money becomes pointless, status is the only thing motivating one to make more money (save obsession LoL).

Anyway, i digress...

Gimme the ability to hire/buy a carrier & found colinies on moons, planetoids,& or hollow asteroids..... C'mon, you know you would love it too vice!

[DaveK]

Actually, I was responding to earlier comments about too easy money and lack of risk and the negative impact it has on the game. I've never been in the enviable position of having double figure millions, never mind hundreds of millions so I don't know what impact it will have on my exploration enjoyment

To be trueful, in a game and especially such a free response game as this, I'm not sure what cash sinks you could have that wouldn't either be as pointless as "looking" at your money (decorating a flat with works of art ) or would have an impact on others in MP - what would you actually do with your battleship and squadron of hi spec fighters? You might as well go and play a game that handles that sort of sim as its primary aim. Evochron Mercenary is about everyday people living and exploring in a harsh but interesting environment, not about a Bill Gates with military delusions.

Given that Vice is the sole creator of Evochron, perhaps it's asking a bit much to create cash sinks that would please everyone - they probably would have to be quite "broad" things to integrate them into the universe.

**** If anyone is actually reading this, what cash sinks would you want?

Perhaps the Vice could create a few hidden systems with puzzles and quests that you can only get to by paying extreme amounts to buy access via (toll) gates.

Perhaps we could have a banking system in Evochron, then when it goes into meltdown people would lose their billions

Perhaps an MP team could commit genocide on the Vonari. Perhaps a Clan could take over Sapphire! Perhaps someone could hunt down The Romulan and put him into stocks to let newbies throw wet sponges at him. All three sound like they could be expensive!

Rather than making (apparently) pointless billions I would like to create a comprehensive travel guide of the whole quadrant - but then I'm a bit nerdy like that! I think that it would keep me happy for quite a while. I might even post a blog on my adventures! (but with spoiler alerts

Anyway, enjoy life until money becomes too boring - after all, they do say that it doesn't buy happiness.

[Edited on 21-9-2010 by DaveK]

[Edited on 21-9-2010 by DaveK]

[DaveK]

Another idea - perhaps manufacturers could have expensive recalls on some ships and equipment, but at the customers expense

Would modding allow individuals or teams to create quests? (still needing a fee paid to follow them)

[Edited on 21-9-2010 by DaveK]

[Ravenfeeder]

If Mercenaries run anything like Legends, and Renegades, then a couple of hundred million is peanuts.

You can reach Legends status just by making money, in Legends it was just above 6bn. Getting Legends status doesn't do you a lot, normally, but... and it's a big but, aside from having the cash to do/buy what you want, when you want, and if you want, it also relieves you of having to pay station fees.

That might not seem such a big deal, but, if you've got a herd of reds on your tail, your ship is heavily damaged, you've run out of missiles, and your fuel is getting low, you dive for the nearest station to get fixed up only to have the door slammed in your face with a demand for money first, or no entry - those few seconds can spell your doom.

Have you looked at the price of station licences? They aren't cheap, and, the price of a licence goes up the more money you have - hint: buy them whilst they are relatively cheap. You might not think that 3m-5m for a licence is cheap. Wait until you have a couple of billion cash. In Legends I was being quoted up to 300m for a station licence - that's a lot of shazoolas.

Anyway, Dave, it's up to each individual how they play their game. I've got a Starmaster ship, a bit of a flying brick, and, I am nowhere near the billionaire class, I'm just into double figure millions. But, that flying brick has all the bells and whistles installed in her. I got the money for that by hard work; constant mining, until I had enough money to buy good trade goods, and then working those trade routes, though hostile space. A few more millions and I'll be starting the military missions in a war zone.

My way isn't everyones' way. But, that's the beauty of Vices' games, you can do your own thing, in your own way, and don't wimp about other peoples' way of playing.

Don't be frightened of MP. MP is where you can benefit from others experience, if you want, or you can just do your own thing, until you get stuck, when, hopefully someone will give you assistance, if you ask for it.

Just enjoy the game.

[DaveK]

Another cash sink (perhaps)

hire hangers with ships optimised for different roles - e.g. lots of fuel for exploring. Does an Excalibur need 8 hard points for the eight missiles? If so I would want a ship with Excalibur and hi spec guns plus armour and shield to take on capital ships as well. And a small, sleek fast and manouverable little job to become racing champion of the universe and a couple of military ships optimised for different military roles and . . .

[Marvin]

Originally posted by DaveK

**** If anyone is actually reading this, what cash sinks would you want?

I read the blue part. It already costs a small fortune to build a series of stations. But, yeah, high-end civilian ships could be upped in price. Along with some of the more sophisticated offensive and defensive weaponry.

[DaveK]

Hi (Vice are you reading this?) Another quick thought

Did I read somewhere that Excalibur generates reloads? If so, as a missile system it's feels a bit odd. Hows about containers of Excalibur reloads - one reload to the container so that you don't effectively have a wonder weapon that doesn't run out of ammo.

For such a powerful weopon, the reload packs would naturally be rare and (very) expensive. 8 missiles @ 12K-ish per missileis 100K a pop which gives you 10 reloads to the million. Does any frame allow more than 5 cargo bays?

If you want to fly around blasting everything in site you would have to hire a hanger and stock it with reloads and be picky about what you used them for because of the need to restock from your store

[Marvin]

That one has been debated to death.

[Maarschalk]

In EM the Excalibur is no longer a wonder weapon it takes to long to reload.....so this time around you have to use more tactics to stay alive early in the game so I think there is more balance now then before and like Marvin said it has been discussed to death....and here relatively we go again.......:P:P:P:P:P:P

[DaveK]

sorry - I thought that I was being original!!

In a few words, whaty was the conclusion?

oops - created this between reading Marvin and Maarschalk posting - I presume that it is already expensive enough!

[Edited on 21-9-2010 by DaveK]

[Marvin]

Now you see it. Only ... for a lot longer than in Legends, now you don't!

[Maarschalk]

LOL....To leave it as it is in Legends and since a lot of people once they became to comfortable with the use of the Excalibur started to complain it was to easy, Vice made a note of that and now all who complained have their wish. Now enjoy your 2 minute reload time Excaliburs....lol. Vice knows how to balance gameplay very well.....:P:P:P:P:P

[Edited on 9-21-2010 by Maarschalk]

[Marvin]

Last time I checked, it was three minutes. Maybe somebody complained.

[verbosity]

Originally posted by TGS
Exactly! You sir have the right idea. It doesn't matter what the money sinks are as long as they exist. Because at the end of the day the "drive" to play a game is really built in its longevity. And in the case of a game where money is the primary resource. It's longevity is tied to the money and what you can do with it. IE Spend it on random silly stuff!. If I wanna spend my money on a ship that goes ludicrous speed and goes plaid that's my choice!

@tgs, I'm still around, just not posting so much, I'm on the forum daily and as soon as I get a new stick I'll be in-game again.
------------------------------------------

Really EM /ER /EA have never been about the cash, sure there is cash to be made, but the combat is where it is at, no matter what item or price Vice sticks something at there will be profit and that means exploits ( more cash).
That being said, there are loads of cash sink holes, during beta I went from 2+bil to 250mil in only a few hours playing.
examples:
1. military rank, you can seriously cut down the amount of time it takes to get a good rank, if you have the cash,
2. empire building, yeah thats right you can have your empire, but it comes at a cost. Station detonators are a real risk,
3. Combat, just a few hours combat can seriously dent your finances, but its worth it, since your kill score counts towards your civ rating.

After all is said and done, ahh hell just go out and make a pretty nav pic by placing stations in funny places............

[Edited on 9-21-2010 by verbosity]

[Maarschalk]

Originally posted by Marvin
Last time I checked, it was three minutes. Maybe somebody complained.

LOL.......combat was to intense to keep track of the reload time.....the 3 minutes relatively seems more like 5 minutes. Why do I get the feeling I'm in a streched Space Time Continuem where everything last longer except for the good things in life?.........:P:P:P:P

[Marvin]

Yeah, I was doing it in SP. Fun, fun, fun.

[Whytephyre]

A lot of interesting ideas floating around in this thread... I really like some of the ideas about toll gates... But to be honest i think the point stands.

[Corgano]

Originally posted by Marvin
Last time I checked, it was three minutes. Maybe somebody complained.

longest 3 minutes of your life with 9 hostiles headin' your way.... ah well.... gives me time to collect my thoughts while I drift in the opposite direction

[Maarschalk]

LOL...you good read a good book meanwhile till you hear the next missile lock signal.....:P:P:P:P

[TGS]

Not gonna quote as I'm sort of replying in general. But to hint at what Verb said. I have to respectfully disagree. Combat maybe where its at for you... but for me where its at is flying around stealth and making money. I really like money I like making money. I like spending money. I like the idea of money.

That being said is primarily why money sinks need to be in the game beyond the "scaling" wealth concept. Which is great don't get me wrong the richer you are the more you pay makes sense (It's a shame Real life doesn't always work like that) but basically in this game there really aren't any money sinks. I think the most expensive thing in the game has a base price of what like 10 mill? Sure it scales up but as Whyte has been saying there should be frames that don't serve any great purpose other than to spend money on to display wealth. Items in the game that cost a crap load of money that do fun quirky little things.

Hell you could even have crew members that charged excessive amounts of money for their services. Maybe even an in-game slot machine/gambling mingame in the new hangers. Going back to the crew members you could have an "Expert Navigator" who charges 10-100 million a cycle but gives you the ability to find celestial objects within 1000 sectors. Something that would be awesome for explorers... but pricey enough to prevent people from picking them up and just keeping them long term.

Now that we can place stations maybe there can be a high cost "banner" station that we can place similar to what sits next to some of the core system gates.

Ultimately the biggest thing that ruins this idea of course is the save system. You can go buy some grossly expensive thing then just revert your save and voila. But a simple solution around that is any money sink items could be marked with something like a [*] which signifies that if you purchase the item... it automatically saves your profile. Thus preventing someone from buying the grossly expensive things then turning around and reverting.

And the beauty of these suggestions is that they don't even have to be overly complicated. They don't have to even affect anyone else. They can be completely optional things that cater only to people like myself who want to have things to spend our money on.

I'm gonna reveal something that will probably make you all point and laugh at me but when I use to play Sims 2 (And sometimes still do) they had pointless flavor items in the form of paintings. The clever thing about them is because in that game you could potentially earn massive amounts of money and it could become trivialized... you could buy very expensive paintings. Some of them would actually increase in value over time. Others would obviously decrease. Something similar to that could be added to the game. Rare items that may increase in value or decrease in value. And could be fun trade items in multiplayer. IE I could buy a funny painting for 50 million go into multiplayer and tell Whyte I wanna sell it to him for 60 million. Sell it to him. Then 5-10 cycles later he could sell it to a station for 100 million. But I didn't know that. Risk/reward. But also a money sink.

[Corgano]

maybe we need a "planetary" real estate broker for a money sink....


"Beautiful starter planet for sale. No existing structures/settlements. Price includes small moon: $50 trillion"


(and, of course, building your city on your new planet takes money too)