Radar Detection

[DeathTech]

Honestly I do believe 10 km is way too little to get around with.

Plenty for dog fighting.

Way too little for long range detection. (The actual point of a normal radar.)

[stuguy909]

Seeing further than 10km: You can deploy a Sensor Station to quickly locate enemies and objects. The range will be huge, but the contacts will depend on your position relative to the Sensor, so you need to jump to different locations in the sector to get reliable infos and a 'global' view. Once the sensor is in place, it's dynamic. The only thing: don't leave the sector or it vanishes.

What I would like is a Angle-Off indicator telling me what the heading of an enemy ship is relative to my heading, so I can plan BFM maneuvres. The icons on the radar should at least roughly denote what the heading of a ship is, this would be really useful in combat IMO.
But maybe this is already somewhere in the hud or MFDs ?

XenonS


[Edited on 4-28-2016 by XenonSurf]

Getting the ability to deploy a radar station is a pain in the ass. I have yet to find the build or deploy modules in my game.

I sympathize with the act of building dedicated player stations with better specialized gear than what fits on my ship sharing its sensor data with my on board computer. However, it doesn't change the fact that the sensor suite in my ship is absolutely ridiculous. I should have over 20 times the range capability. I will not blindly drive around a solar system hoping I bump into something. I have shit to do.

The argument against increasing ranges or adding new modes with increased ranges is absolutely preposterous. I might as well lock myself into a dark closet. It's no different than flying around in this game.

[Vice]

We are already experimenting with an equipment item that provides increased directional ship detection (non-IFF based) out to 20K as a gauge to see how well it may or may not pan out. But if you want your points to be given much merit (by me as the developer at least), you'll need to avoid non-constructive subjective rhetoric and be more specific, relevant (to the game's intended functions, systems, and design), and constructive.

I should have over 20 times the range capability.

You can have 50 times the range with the equipment that has been recommended to you. If the problem can be remedied, even if just partially, by making deploy constructors easier to find/acquire, that can certainly be considered. But your focus appears to still be on short range detail sensors/radar. So for such short range ship detail sensors, can you articulate why you should have 20 times the range? Beyond just finding things easier/faster or because some modern day system works a certain way. But rather in the context of the game and its intended functions, systems, and design.

The argument against increasing ranges or adding new modes with increased ranges is absolutely preposterous. I might as well lock myself into a dark closet. It's no different than flying around in this game.

If it is a deal-breaker for you and for whatever reason(s), you refuse to use the additional sensor technology available in the game to facilitate (at least in part) the goals you say you want, then it sounds like there just can't be a solution to your problem. And it may just not be the game for you.

[matchbox2022]

probes aren't so bad and are a good middle ground....that said, increased radar beyond visual range would be good I feel.

I don't think he was talking about seeing the whole galaxy or sector, but even out to 20k would be a pretty big improvement and still feel like space or a sector is massive. Still gives the probes and such their niche.

the biggest issue really with that extended range equipment stuff probes and sensor stations...and its a really really big issue,

rather than just being hard to acquire or find, is also "locking" onto their position,

if you could "right click" a blip on your nav map and have a nav point set on the target that'd be crazy helpful...the same way you would lock onto any planet, base, station, gate, etc.. Doing it manually, even one pixel off can leave you out of radar range of the ship / item,



highly...incredibly annoying.

[Vice]

I don't have a problem introducing a range extender equipment item to the short range radar/sensor system to provide generic non-IFF ship direction data, so long as full detail scanning still stays within 10K. So we'll see how the 20K arrangement works out with the testers. It could wind up being anything in the 15-40K range in the end.

Objects that broadcast exact telemetry data can provide a right click lock on option via long range scanning. Those objects include all full nav map icons, deploy structures, allied human ships in multiplayer, and also the contract waypoint marker. However, requiring visual and close range sensor search patterns for certain other detected objects is part of the intended search process. Zooming the map and carefully selecting a nearby jump/nav point is an important step. I wouldn't mind introducing a vague right click option for such objects, but some of them are intended to be hidden and difficult to pin down even when their location is vaguely detected on long range sensors.

[Marvin]

There is logic behind what you can and can't lock up when right-clicking on an object displayed on the navigation map. Either the object must be big enough for long-range capture or must be friendly enough to be transmitting an identifying signal.

[matchbox2022]

I don't have a problem introducing a range extender equipment item to the short range radar/sensor system to provide generic non-IFF ship direction data, so long as full detail scanning still stays within 10K. So we'll see how the 20K arrangement works out with the testers. It could wind up being anything in the 15-40K range in the end.

Objects that broadcast exact telemetry data can provide a right click lock on option via long range scanning. Those objects include all full nav map icons, deploy structures, allied human ships in multiplayer, and also the contract waypoint marker. However, requiring visual and close range sensor search patterns for certain other detected objects is part of the intended search process. Zooming the map and carefully selecting a nearby jump/nav point is an important step. I wouldn't mind introducing a vague right click option for such objects, but some of them are intended to be hidden and difficult to pin down even when their location is vaguely detected on long range sensors.

That equipment you're testing out would be fantastic...I'm sure a lot of people would appreciate it.

And for the longer range options, even a vague location (within 15k-20kish) would be nice. Honestly, I've tried to be careful, but we don't all have razor laser mice that can move single pixels at a time, and sometimes it really needs half a pixel.

I'd suggest a bigger map....but REALLY....it just needs the ability to physically get there (aka. fixed.) once you more or less see something of interest. A "vague" right click like you suggested would be perfect.

[Marvin]

Way too little for long range detection. (The actual point of a normal radar.)

Long range detection is the job of GCI. Combat radar is usually tied to the fire control system. Air-to-mud radar is a pain when used for air combat.

[matchbox2022]

Way too little for long range detection. (The actual point of a normal radar.)

Long range detection is the job of GCI. Combat radar is usually tied to the fire control system. Air-to-mud radar is a pain when used for air combat.

True, but think we need a more vague radar that at least gives us contacts. I won't pretend to know exactly how it works on fighters today (I "try" to stick to what I've been taught / learned / experienced), but im sure things would be different hundreds of years from today.

[XenonSurf]

A longer radar range detection would not change a iota in your dogfight tactics in Evochron, because of current AI behavior.
And additionally it would make some missions ridiculously easy.
Anyone who hasn't used Sensor Stations yet should at least try it out so they see that it does exactly what a long range radar is intended to do, not at 100 percent ofc, it allows to detect larger groups of enemy ships and see if you will get support or not so you can attack or avoid these groups.
But I doubt this would help anyone do a better fighting, the missiles have a close range anyhow so they would be easily detracted if they had a longer range. Nothing interesting IMO.

if the data from the Sensor Station (or any other long range radar) was so useful, I would suggest to make it toggle with a command key to appear on your central radar console, so yes, you get a quick overview of dangers and avoid going into the NAV screen, but I feel better selecting single dots in the Nav by zooming in, don't forget the info is 3D !!
A useful long range radar would require all the AI to be more centered towards attacking the player, so if you spot nearby dangers (beyond 10 km), these NPC would react and try to shortly engage the player. I need to check out if this happens by jumping near a larger group of enemy NPCs to see if they react to my presence, but I doubt they do this currently (speaking about SP).
So long range is good to spot objects, but has no good use in combat, at least at the current stage of EL.

XenonS

[Edited on 4-29-2016 by XenonSurf]

[Marvin]

There is at least one benefit to extending the range a bit ... it allows you to track an escaping AI beyond current range. Even if you can't lock him up, he won't disappear. Which comes in handy during a contract where you've managed to kill, say, four out of five ... but that fifth guy has dropped back, out of sight. The additional range might be all you need to head in the right direction for the intercept and, eventually, the kill.

[matchbox2022]

A longer radar range detection would not change a iota in your dogfight tactics in Evochron, because of current AI behavior.
And additionally it would make some missions ridiculously easy.
Anyone who hasn't used Sensor Stations yet should at least try it out so they see that it does exactly what a long range radar is intended to do, not at 100 percent ofc, it allows to detect larger groups of enemy ships and see if you will get support or not so you can attack or avoid these groups.
But I doubt this would help anyone do a better fighting, the missiles have a close range anyhow so they would be easily detracted if they had a longer range. Nothing interesting IMO.

if the data from the Sensor Station (or any other long range radar) was so useful, I would suggest to make it toggle with a command key to appear on your central radar console, so yes, you get a quick overview of dangers and avoid going into the NAV screen, but I feel better selecting single dots in the Nav by zooming in, don't forget the info is 3D !!
A useful long range radar would require all the AI to be more centered towards attacking the player, so if you spot nearby dangers (beyond 10 km), these NPC would react and try to shortly engage the player. I need to check out if this happens by jumping near a larger group of enemy NPCs to see if they react to my presence, but I doubt they do this currently (speaking about SP).
So long range is good to spot objects, but has no good use in combat, at least at the current stage of EL.

XenonS


[Edited on 4-29-2016 by XenonSurf]

You make some very good points, however I feel the sensor station is still too difficult to use even if you find something.

I think the range increase would be to help that as well (lack of accuracy) and it still wouldn't be that easy....I've lost many opponents due to them going "out of range" and disappearing into blackness. Just like Marvin stated it's happened to me.

So, at the least, if contacts were kept "unidentified" than you could track it for a while further out using the globe radar.

If AI see you as unidentified as well, than their behaviour could just be "as is" unless they physically get to identification range at 10k.

Unless something is added where they might choose to seek out a contact they find, but I think it's best left as simple as possible...(aka not doing that)

[Edited on 4-29-2016 by matchbox2022]

[Marvin]

I feel the sensor station is still too difficult to use even if you find something.

You should get better at it with practice ... especially for stationary objects. It's more of a problem with moving objects like ships ... and the expanded radar should help with that.