Multiplayer Questions

Trent · Post by **Trent** » Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:07 am

Hey everyone, just stumbled on this game / site tonight searching for "Space Combat TrackIR" on Youtube, and found some mind blowing videos for this game. Got a flight sim setup with a 1080p projector w/ TrackIR, and was looking for a space game to fill up the 11 foot screen...

So I downloaded and played the demo for awhile, and after experiencing "real" space physics for the first time, I'm hooked... will be buying the full version tonight.

I have some questions about Multiplayer. I've got some fond memories of the old BBS Tradewars games from the early 90's, but I'm not too fond of MMORPG type games. Mainly due to the thousands of teenagers out to "pwn n00bs", especially middle age guys like me with slow(er) reaction times and real world responsibilities that limit free-time... The idea of running a sandbox universe for casual gaming between me, some buddies, and perhaps some new internet friends is interesting, to say the least.

On to those questions;

I run a datacenter with redundant OC12's, but each rack is hard limited to 20MB/s by our packet shaper - how much bandwidth does the server consume, and how does it scale with the number of players? What's the maximum of players allowed on at once, and what's the worst-case bandwidth utilization?

Is a dedicated server available which will run and behave well within Windows 2008 R2 64-bit HyperV virtual machines? Or would I have to drop in a dedicated hardware platform? Reason I ask is if it works with HyperV I've got a 240GB RAM failover cluster I could provision some space on easily/quickly, but if I have to drop another machine in, it involves quite a bit more work and logistics to implement.

Is there an API or other facility to allow of monitoring (externally) who's on the system, or other universe game-state type stats? If so what type of interface? We have a staff of .NET programmers, and I've been doing .NET development for 15 years. It would be nice to have some ability to see what's going on, and what's happened in the past, in the game. If there's an API or some method of querying game state, I could wrap some web services around it for history.

Can the universe be tweaked at all or is it totally pre-packaged and static? Tradewars (yeah I know that name keeps coming up here..) was pretty "tweakable" to the admin's tastes, and quite different on each board, making some of the longer term games pretty wild and different.

Don't have any more questions off the top of my head, still not quite sure how it all works but I've been picking up pieces of info here and there on the forum and website tonight, trying to get a picture of what this series is all about.

By the way, outstanding work. This is perhaps the best indie title I've ever seen. Can't believe I didn't hear about it before this random YouTube event transpired tonight.

Post by **Marvin** » Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:42 am

Originally posted by Trent

Can the universe be tweaked at all or is it totally pre-packaged and static? Tradewars (yeah I know that name keeps coming up here..) was pretty "tweakable" to the admin's tastes, and quite different on each board, making some of the longer term games pretty wild and different.

The tech stuff I'll leave to Vice and MMaggio (the resident host of Mercenary's most popular server). But, as for the universe, the default universe is compiled in code and, consequently, can't be tweaked. It is possible to build your own universe from scratch, though. You'd then need to distribute the modded files to anyone who plans to log on to your customized server.

BraveHart · Post by **BraveHart** » Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:16 am

"Welcome Aboard Trent"...I'm with Marvin and defer your Tech Question to the Master of Evochron Universe Vice....I'm just an Old timer retired with lot's of time on my hands and when I found the Evochron Universe several years ago I was Hooked....This is a Great Community and MP is Really Cool....I found my niche here taking ScreenShots for the enjoyment of the Evochron Pilots. I really enjoy the fact that I can Fly in any time zone I choose....I've Flown with the guys across the Pond and throughout Europe, Australia, Italy...and if it weren't for these "Yoda Moments" I'd list a few more Places...LoL

...There are a few old timers kicking around here who enjoy a good time flying around in MP...So come on Aboard and have a Good time

Post by **Marvin** » Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:05 pm

Btw, Vice is still working on the Customizing Kit for Mercenary but you can download the Kit for Legends. There are some significant differences but mostly the formats are quite similar. You can, for instance, use the Legends "universedata" file as a template for your own Mercenary universe ... most (but not all) of the Mercenary universe is taken from that file.

Post by **Vice** » Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:47 pm

I run a datacenter with redundant OC12's, but each rack is hard limited to 20MB/s by our packet shaper - how much bandwidth does the server consume, and how does it scale with the number of players? What's the maximum of players allowed on at once, and what's the worst-case bandwidth utilization?

The amount of bandwidth use does scale with the number of players in the game. And it scales further depending on their proximities to each other. So the actual use varies. 20MB/s should be way more than enough for the small number of players you indicate. The chart in the instructions included with the program provides a general guideline for bandwidth need/use based on the number of players, although it can certainly vary outside of those ranges depending on a number of other factors (system performance, player locations, internet/LAN, etc).

Is a dedicated server available which will run and behave well within Windows 2008 R2 64-bit HyperV virtual machines? Or would I have to drop in a dedicated hardware platform? Reason I ask is if it works with HyperV I've got a 240GB RAM failover cluster I could provision some space on easily/quickly, but if I have to drop another machine in, it involves quite a bit more work and logistics to implement.

That I don't know. Any system the program runs on will need at least rudimentary Direct3D support (inherent dependency and used for the GUI), even a 10 year old 3D card would work. This is something you could test any time as the program is available for download from the game's website.

Is there an API or other facility to allow of monitoring (externally) who's on the system, or other universe game-state type stats? If so what type of interface? We have a staff of .NET programmers, and I've been doing .NET development for 15 years. It would be nice to have some ability to see what's going on, and what's happened in the past, in the game. If there's an API or some method of querying game state, I could wrap some web services around it for history.

The program itself is designed to monitor gamestate, including clan territory control, chat activities, event log, etc. To view that externally visually in real time, you'd need some form of remote desktop access (UltraVNC for example). Various data are also saved to external text files, which can then be opened and viewed.

[Edited on 10-7-2010 by Vice]

Trent · Post by **Trent** » Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:49 pm

Thanks for the welcome guys!

I had the opportunity to play for awhile last night single player after purchasing the game, I can tell it's got a bit of a learning curve and gets pretty deep. Flipping the ship around and hitting the burners to slow down was rather fun. There's some parts that seem rather unforgiving though, like cruising around the surface of New Hope and hitting space to shut off IDS... whoops.

I gotta say, this is really looking like "the one" that I've been looking for all along. Back in the C64 days we had games like Galactic Conquest, then there was the BBS days with Tradewars. But ever since the first time I fired up Wing Commander - one of my first introductions to first person PC gaming - I've had a special spot in my heart for space sims. Unfortunately, over the years there's been a long list of let-downs.

X3 was interesting, for awhile, but it starts to feel too much like "work" after you get a few stations going, no surprises, really. Sure there's a lot of fun to be had (unleashing a couple thousand drones on a big group of Xenons IS rather fun) but after awhile it just feels predictable and rather lonely.

Not trying to bash X3, I've burned a lot of hours in the game and certainly got my money's worth out of it, but it just doesn't feel like space. THIS game .. it feels like space.

Looking forward to playing, and perhaps contributing a little to the community from time to time as well.

Post by **Marvin** » Fri Oct 08, 2010 2:53 am

One suggestion: play for awhile before you start modding. Both are addictive ... but modding is even more time-consuming. Especially if your day only has 24 hours in it. And you want to use a couple of those hours for sleep.

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Fri Oct 08, 2010 5:08 am

LOL...Eclipse only 36hours?

:P:P:P:P

Anyways, Welcome Trent to the game and forum. Hope to see you out there some time...

Aures · Post by **Aures** » Fri Oct 08, 2010 6:55 am

Welcome Trent, the Wing Commander series is one of my all time favourites as well. I have played through all of them at least once, but for WCIII and WCIV I have lost track of how many times I have played them. Ended up buying most of them twice as well (originals and Kiltrathi Saga) since the originals had issues with more modern systems.

It is possible and fun to fly in atmosphere with IDS off. You are lucky to be coming in just after the forward and reverse inertial thrust were beefed up. Prior to that (and in the previous game Legends) it was only really possible to do it using the afterburner. Still takes a fair bit of skill though.

I hear you on X3, it does some things very well and I would still be piling the hours into it if I hadn't found other space games I am more into atm. Definitely very linear and it makes me feel claustrophobic. At least there is always something useful to do with your money. I had some fun trying to get the script editor to let me fly in a somewhat Newtonian fashion (cooperative multitasking with no way to predict when the script will run or determine when it is run to less than a second kind of messed that up). I also wish there was some way to make shields bounce off each other like Evochron rather than grind until someone blows up. The script editor is nice but because it is mostly prepackaged functions you are pretty restricted in the types of thing you can do.

Trent · Post by **Trent** » Fri Oct 08, 2010 3:41 pm

Originally posted by Vice
Is a dedicated server available which will run and behave well within Windows 2008 R2 64-bit HyperV virtual machines? Or would I have to drop in a dedicated hardware platform? Reason I ask is if it works with HyperV I've got a 240GB RAM failover cluster I could provision some space on easily/quickly, but if I have to drop another machine in, it involves quite a bit more work and logistics to implement.
That I don't know. Any system the program runs on will need at least rudimentary Direct3D support (inherent dependency and used for the GUI), even a 10 year old 3D card would work. This is something you could test any time as the program is available for download from the game's website.

I'll load it up on a test HyperV server and see what happens. However, I doubt it will work on HyperV since there's no physical hardware and I don't believe GPU's are passed through to the virtual machines. This is also an issue with implementing the new FX portion of Remote Desktop Hosts post Win2008Rk2 service pack 1, as well, hopefully Microsoft will address it at some point. That allows DirectX acceleration over RDP connections, requires hardware GPU acceleration on the server. But, typical Microsoft, it's not compatible with the enterprise features - since remote desktop machines running in a failover cluster have to, by their nature, be virtualized.

I'll play with some 3 year old servers that were recently retired, see if I can shoehorn one or both of my old 8800's in there. Just pulled two 8800's out of my flight sim rig to stick a 460GTX in, now they're just collecting so much dust...

And thanks for the reply Vice, I actually missed it yesterday (was posting my post as you were making yours evidently!).

Ravenfeeder · Post by **Ravenfeeder** » Fri Oct 08, 2010 8:28 pm

An 11ft screen!!! It doesn't happen often, but, you've made me feel jealous - have to have another beer.

You won't find herds of psychotic teenagers out to do you in, in ME. Middle age, whatever that is, shouldn't slow you down. I passed, what's called middle age, many years ago, and, so far, so good... I think!

Jester · Post by **Jester** » Fri Oct 08, 2010 11:19 pm

Originally posted by Ravenfeeder
.....Middle age, whatever that is, shouldn't slow you down....

I;m not quite there yet but I totally agree with you.

Youth, Enthusiasm and Exuberance is trumped by Age, Experience and Trechery everytime!!

Ravenfeeder · Post by **Ravenfeeder** » Fri Oct 08, 2010 11:34 pm

I reckon we only get old on the outside, the inside stays at a pernament 26, or so!

Trent · Post by **Trent** » Sat Oct 09, 2010 12:41 am

Originally posted by Jester
Originally posted by Ravenfeeder
.....Middle age, whatever that is, shouldn't slow you down....
I;m not quite there yet but I totally agree with you.

Youth, Enthusiasm and Exuberance is trumped by Age, Experience and Trechery everytime!!

This is the night I got it put together, minus the TrackIR piece that extends 4' out from the wall under the projector.

Side view. Hard to make out from the angle but that wall on the right is 18' long by 16' high.

Since this was taken I've added a desk in front of the seat, and been working on measurements for enclosing the TrackIR in to something more permanent. Took awhile to get the calculations right - With trackIR mounted between my head and the projector, there's a very fine line where it can exist. Too high it creates a shadow on the lower part of the projector screen. Too low, and it gets in my field of vision. 4' out is the point of convergence to my vision and the projector throw. So I cut a couple pieces of 1/4"x2" oak strips that were about 42" long, shoved them under the projector. Then I stapled a piece of balsa between the other end and literally duct taped the TrackIR camera up there.

Working out real well so far. I'm working on an embedded .NET piece with the FEZ Cobra EMX microcontroler board to drive gauges and switches off of, for the flight sim stuff (using Devicelink via UDP protocol over Ethernet to talk to IL2's engine). But as is, it works great with Evochron.

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Sat Oct 09, 2010 12:46 am

Wow...!!!!, very cool......

Trent · Post by **Trent** » Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:01 am

That's a racing seat for a Corvette I had shipped in for California. It's fully functional, reclines, moves forward and back just like it would in a car. The frame is built out of cheap pine 2x4's for now, wanted to get all the dimensions "right" and some "seat time" before I decided to build a hardwood version.

It's elevated off the ground some because the projector screen is rather high, and I was getting bad neck-strain before building this on a normal computer chair / desk. Now the problem is resolved. Currently I have the screen pointed further down, about even with that light switch on bottom, which places it more or less right smack in front of me.

I could have a 15' screen if the projector had better throw. My old 1280x1024 projector had a short throw, and the output was actually larger in overall size than this 1920x1080 display.

But the quality on this one is impressive, and it's more than bright enough to play in full-on daylight hours. My old one.. not so much. This is an Optima, cost about a grand at Best Buy.

About the only thing left to do besides rebuild it out of decent materials (and finish the EMX embedded gauge cluster for flight sims), is add a bass-shaker under the seat.

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:09 am

LOL....Nice.....

Aures · Post by **Aures** » Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:33 am

Meep, I fear that that rig might welll more than compensate for any difference in reaction time there might be between us. At least it would give me an excuse to discount your victory over me (not really, I am actually a gracious loser most of the time).

Very nice.

TGS · Post by **TGS** » Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:22 am

Sadly I have tinkered with Virtualized environments myself and a couple other people on the forum have as well and basically just short of some of the higher end VMware versions (That can do DirectX) you aren't going to find much luck due to the graphical requirements.

Originally posted by Trent
Originally posted by Vice
Is a dedicated server available which will run and behave well within Windows 2008 R2 64-bit HyperV virtual machines? Or would I have to drop in a dedicated hardware platform? Reason I ask is if it works with HyperV I've got a 240GB RAM failover cluster I could provision some space on easily/quickly, but if I have to drop another machine in, it involves quite a bit more work and logistics to implement.
That I don't know. Any system the program runs on will need at least rudimentary Direct3D support (inherent dependency and used for the GUI), even a 10 year old 3D card would work. This is something you could test any time as the program is available for download from the game's website.
I'll load it up on a test HyperV server and see what happens. However, I doubt it will work on HyperV since there's no physical hardware and I don't believe GPU's are passed through to the virtual machines. This is also an issue with implementing the new FX portion of Remote Desktop Hosts post Win2008Rk2 service pack 1, as well, hopefully Microsoft will address it at some point. That allows DirectX acceleration over RDP connections, requires hardware GPU acceleration on the server. But, typical Microsoft, it's not compatible with the enterprise features - since remote desktop machines running in a failover cluster have to, by their nature, be virtualized.

I'll play with some 3 year old servers that were recently retired, see if I can shoehorn one or both of my old 8800's in there. Just pulled two 8800's out of my flight sim rig to stick a 460GTX in, now they're just collecting so much dust...

And thanks for the reply Vice, I actually missed it yesterday (was posting my post as you were making yours evidently!).

Trent · Post by **Trent** » Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:12 am

There's a glimmer of hope on the virtualization thing. After Windows 2008R2 SP1, "Remote Desktop Services:VDI" (Virtual desktops) will support RemoteFX, allowing Direct-X to run over the new RDP client included with Windows 7 SP1.

So, while putting up a virtual server may still not yield any results, a virtualized Windows 7 *workstation* should work as a dedicated server. Unfortunately it's not clear yet on whether that will be supported in a failover cluster environment - but a standalone HyperV server with a suitable graphics card should be able to handle quite a few VDI's running Windows 7 with hardware acceleration. Figure most of the servers we're deploying have 48 gigs of RAM, split up in to 4GB workstation loads, with 4 reserved for the host OS, I could host 11 decent Windows 7 machines on one box. On our higher end 128GB servers... a lot more.

Once Service Pack 1 comes out I'll test this on one of our servers and let you guys know. I'm curious to see how DirectX (RemoteFX rather) acceleration works over RDP on a non-LAN situation (e.g. server is remote, connected over a T1, Cable, DSL..).

Either way, it could be sufficient to run DirectX-dependent servers like EM in a hosted environment.