Should the number of hostiles in non-conflict-zone combat contracts be reduced?

Professor Paul1290 · Post by **Professor Paul1290** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:09 am

I'm not sure if I'm alone in this or not, but I'm finding that with how accurate the AI are with the expansion the current number of hostiles you typically run into in combat contracts outside of conflict zones doesn't feel quite right.

I say ones not in conflict zones because the ones in conflict zones actually still seem ok. They're a bit more difficult now but aren't absurdly so and because you're not alone the scenario still makes sense.

Combat contracts not in conflict zones, on the other hand, seem to have gotten a much larger jump in difficulty from the expansion and feel a bit overkill with how things are balanced now. Before it sort of made sense to be send the lone player against five or so hostiles because the hostiles were not very difficult to kill. That doesn't seem to be as much the case anymore and having as many hostiles seems a bit much.

I was hanging around Talison for a bit, and oddly enough, the combat contracts in Talison itself now seem tougher and more aggravating than those in Talison Conflict.

Does anyone else feel this way?

[Edited on 12-6-2012 by Professor Paul1290]

[Edited on 12-6-2012 by Professor Paul1290]

[Edited on 12-6-2012 by Professor Paul1290]

Caboose7 · Post by **Caboose7** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:19 am

From post: 150475, Topic: tid=10066, author=Professor Paul1290 wrote:I'm not sure if I'm alone in this or not, but I'm finding that with how accurate the AI are with the expansion the current number of hostiles you typically run into in combat contracts outside of conflict zones doesn't feel quite right.

I say ones not in conflict zones because the ones in conflict zones actually still seem ok. They're a bit more difficult now but aren't absurdly so and because you're not alone the scenario still makes sense.

Combat contracts not in conflict zones, on the other hand, seem to have gotten a much larger jump in difficulty from the expansion and feel a bit overkill with how things are balanced now. Before it sort of made sense to be send the lone player against five or so hostiles because the hostiles were not very difficult to kill. That doesn't seem to be as much the case anymore and having as many hostiles seems a bit much.

I was hanging around Talison for a bit, and oddly enough, the combat contracts in Talison itself now seem tougher and more aggravating than those in Talison Conflict.

Does anyone else feel this way?

[Edited on 12-6-2012 by Professor Paul1290]

[Edited on 12-6-2012 by Professor Paul1290]

[Edited on 12-6-2012 by Professor Paul1290]

yes, combat is definitely much more difficult. contracts I was breezing through yesterday I'm now struggling with. Probably will get a bit easier after tinkering with the weapon lab a bit I suppose.

Rubber Chicken · Post by **Rubber Chicken** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:55 am

I've noticed that while missiles are more accurate, it's still possible to out-drift them without getting too far away from the engagment zone. One thing I have observed tonight that I didn't while beta testing is that it seems the AI are so accurate with their gunfire they will not shoot unless they calculate a nearly 100% chance of hitting. In which case they will only fire while you are at the perfect flight path. Drifting to the side at a high enough velocity, I was able to single out individual AI and circle them nose-to-nose at extremely close range and they wouldn't fire a shot. Other times they would only fire one round when I was in optimal trajectory and held fire the very next second I left. I don't know how anybody else feels about this, but shouldn't they have a little more element of 'spray and pray'?

SeeJay · Post by **SeeJay** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:07 am

I think that the way it is now is much better than before.
More realistic fights against AI.
They were much to easy before, even in the hardest systems.

It is a dangerous place out there and "cruising" combat with one hand is just boring.
Now you need to stay on your toes and work to improve yourself. Love it!;)

Nubarus · Post by **Nubarus** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:23 pm

I only had a few engagements with the new expansion and I must say I like the new AI a lot, the old AI was waaaaaaaaay below novice level and waaaaaaaay too easy to take out. I have been in hostile systems destroying over 200 AI ships without breaking a sweat or even reload my CM's.
That is just wrong if you ask me, at least now they pose somewhat of a challenge and you need actual skill to take a mob of em down.

I just remembered why I had to break off teh fight in that hostile system, I drained my fuel below 50 units, I had a full tank of 1200 when i started that fight.
It was in a Mammoth btw, so not even a high performance combat craft, not that it made a big difference against the AI anyway though if you flew civil or navy.

oni14128 · Post by **oni14128** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:24 pm

Guess I'm on the fence with this one. I do like the fact that combat is tougher, but with the upgraded accuracy algorithims for the A.I. it really does feel like fighting A.I. not another person. Did the Klone finally take over? Anyway, guess I just need to play MP more often.

Nubarus · Post by **Nubarus** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:25 pm

Oh and did I notice it correctly that the AI now use their AB in combat to get closer to you?

Nubarus · Post by **Nubarus** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:30 pm

From post: 150502, Topic: tid=10066, author=oni14128 wrote:Guess I'm on the fence with this one. I do like the fact that combat is tougher, but with the upgraded accuracy algorithims for the A.I. it really does feel like fighting A.I. not another person. Did the Klone finally take over? Anyway, guess I just need to play MP more often.

Before this the AI missed 95% of their fire if you drifted, doesn't sound all that realistic to me.

Maybe Vice can tweak it a little to take it down a small nudge or so but please do not take it back the old level where the AI was not really Artificial Intelligence but more like Artificial Incompetence.

-splosives- · Post by **-splosives-** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:44 pm

I think the difficulty of the combat is just right. It's more difficult, but also more realistic.
One single ship is supposed to have some trouble against a whole horde of enemies.
And if you think a little and adjust your tactics somewhat, you can still take out 10 ships by yourself.
I once took out 20 of them including 2 capital ships without any CM's, just by being patient and using some tactics (It took me a while though, and I don't know if they were all there from the start).

Viper · Post by **Viper** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:46 pm

Before the expansion, there were a lot of complaints that the AI were too easy. So they were made more difficult and more intelligent in their movements, techniques and tactics. They also use much higher speeds if they come after you for example. The new system has been tested and tweaked extensively.

It will probably take some getting used to for most players, but overall I'm betting most people will like it better this way. It poses more of a challenge than it did before.
Oh and if you think you're getting the hang of it, try taking on a swarm of Vonari.

Space is a dangerous place.

oni14128 · Post by **oni14128** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:51 pm

From post: 150504, Topic: tid=10066, author=Nubarus wrote:
From post: 150502, Topic: tid=10066, author=oni14128 wrote:Guess I'm on the fence with this one. I do like the fact that combat is tougher, but with the upgraded accuracy algorithims for the A.I. it really does feel like fighting A.I. not another person. Did the Klone finally take over? Anyway, guess I just need to play MP more often.
Before this the AI missed 95% of their fire if you drifted, doesn't sound all that realistic to me.

Maybe Vice can tweak it a little to take it down a small nudge or so but please do not take it back the old level where the AI was not really Artificial Intelligence but more like Artificial Incompetence.

Yes, don't take it back that far. Maybe tweak it to like 80% accuracy. Considering the fact that the MDTS system is really doing the aiming (in most cases) high levels of accuracy should be garunteed. Being human though I still tend to lay down a wall of fire even when the enemy does that rolling spin move that completely messes with the MDTS aiming (almost have that down btw). I am assuming that the weapons mounted on the ships are gimbaled turrets, otherwise MDTS wouldn't make a difference the guns would still fire straight no matter what they were locked onto.

SeeJay · Post by **SeeJay** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:00 pm

The system has been well tested and works really good.

I say leave it as it is. The only thing that is required is training and working on tactics.
The harder the AI is the more pleasure you'll have when you come out victorious.

There is nothing more boring than a game that get's boring really quick because the AI is stupid.

Professor Paul1290 · Post by **Professor Paul1290** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:02 pm

I guess to clarify, my problem is not with the difficulty of the AI themselves. I prefer how the AI fight now as they were far too easy before and I think the increase in difficulty in general is a good thing.
I think the AI is better the way it is now and their accuracy should not be reduced in any way.

It's more that the distribution of the new difficulty seems rather lopsided right now, mainly due to ship count and not the effectiveness of the individual ships themselves.

Right now, combat contracts in non-conflict zones seem just as difficult, and for certain contracts more difficult, than those in conflict zones.
Unless I'm really missing something that doesn't quite make sense universe-wise.

Combat contracts with multiple waypoints and escort contracts in non-conflict zones in particular got a disproportionately larger jump in difficulty than combat anywhere else because of the way those contracts work.
These contracts in particular more asymmetric by default so their jump in difficulty got more multiplicative than additive.

I guess to sum it up, because of the way the fights tend to be structured, it's like combat in conflict zones got a +5 while combat in non-conflict zones got a *5.
(that's a bit of an exaggeration but you get what I mean.)

[Edited on 12-6-2012 by Professor Paul1290]

Nubarus · Post by **Nubarus** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:24 pm

Well, to be honest it's not that strange really, in conflict zones you always have AI backup in the Navy ships as well as a capital ship, in the other zones if you take a contract there you are on your own, no Navy to back you up, so in single player it's wise to hire a fleet to assist you in these more hostile systems, now that the AI got buffed it might actually be worth the cash to hire some wingmen.

Or maybe Vice can add a few friendly AI's to back you up if you take on a contract in a hostile system to even it out a bit since the more hostile the system the more foes you face per contract.
I would be a bit bummed out if every system had a 4 foe contract waiting for you.

Post by **DaveK** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:29 pm

From post: 150480, Topic: tid=10066, author=SeeJay wrote: They were much to easy before, even in the hardest systems.

It is a dangerous place out there and "cruising" combat with one hand is just boring.

And I thought it was because I was getting to be a better combat pilot!

Hows about two hands but just a hint of complacency?

Munshine · Post by **Munshine** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:30 pm

Well while I enjoy a lot the new ai and their new tactics, I feel that dogfights with Vonari are easier and less tense and nervous than before. Before the Expansion, in Talison war zone, if I wasn't focused at what I was doing, my Chimera could be in a pretty bad shape during combat with a lot of leaks in my hull and several damaged systems.

True Vonari ships are hardier to hit because of their different speed patterns. And while it's now tricky evading missiles with CM, they aren't doing massive damages like before.
Now I feel safe in my ship with Vonari, actually I feel so safe that I can set energy from shields to weapons with a factor of 5 which is something I wouldn't dare to do before the Expansion.

And I don't think that it's because I had improved myself.

Is it because the Chimera is a more powerful ship than before ?

Busch · Post by **Busch** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:11 am

And... 1) The AI/NPC's now have repair/recharge capability, whereas they didn't before. 2) They are learning/have learned the englobement technique. 3) In the CZ/WZ's, the Von AI F/I/B's WILL take out the "hired help" (Navy AI troopies - these are YOUR "wingmen") then come after you. Straffing runs fer sure...use your Primarys. Make your shots quick. Make your shots lethal. Try to save missiles for that "special someone"....up close and personal. Or launch a missile barrage attack, then go in and break up the big chunks. Stay out of their range. Stay in your range. As needful, toggle IDS/Inrt'l thrusters for tactical targeting/evading/maneuvering. Use CM's expeditiously; and/or shoot out the incomings, as you are able. Toggle kybd "O" and "P" for closest/next closest hostile target. (The "Alt" toggles also work, but more keys/fingers/etc.) The closest bad guy can hurt you first, the worst, and the most often...be prepared.

All ships have been "balanced". That is, they meet the advertising...rather well. The Chimera, as an example, is just as much powerful now as before. Same with all classes of the stock ships' frame/hull configurations. More balanced, more appropriate to the expanded environment we now fly. I know that sounds like earwash, but it is a truism.

Post by **Marvin** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:10 am

The AI are nearly as capable as the player ... especially now that they use afterburner. And they know how to defeat MTDS (which isn't 100% accurate ... it must still "guess" as to where your target is going to be at the time your weapon reaches it). In other words, Vice has kind'a forced you to either get help from other pilots when on line ... or hire wingmen when playing SP. Which we all should've been doing anyway but never needed to when the AI flew low-grade ships.

Nubarus · Post by **Nubarus** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:35 am

Low grade ships with low grade tactics

Munshine · Post by **Munshine** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:39 am

It's true that enemy ships have some identity and aren't acting like a blob like before. One enemy ship is now able to lure you while another ship can flank you or can hit you in the back.

Sadly, Vonari aren't hitting you hard like before. And well it's my taste, but I'm feeling that the cockpit feedback hitting effect has been toned down.

Does anyone else think that the difficulty level with Vonari has been cranked down in the war zones ?

Post by **Marvin** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:57 pm

Which war zone? All of them?

Munshine · Post by **Munshine** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:44 pm

Well Talison Conflict. I was assuming the AI would be the same in all war zones. If not, my apologies.

Post by **Vice** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:53 pm

The Talison WZ is specifically 'toned down' to allow newbie players an 'easy mode' that allows them to get into the combat side of the game early on without the higher challenge found in other war zones and systems.

Professor Paul1290 · Post by **Professor Paul1290** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:16 pm

From post: 150765, Topic: tid=10066, author=Vice wrote: The Talison WZ is specifically 'toned down' to allow newbie players an 'easy mode' that allows them to get into the combat side of the game early on without the higher challenge found in other war zones and systems.

Oh wow, that actually explains everything.

In that case I think all is fine for the most part.

Post by **Marvin** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:20 pm

There should be a WZ called "Rude Awakening" ... 'cause that's what you usually get when you try a WZ other than Talison.