Secondary Throttle Increase/Decrease != Inertial Fore/Aft : why why why?

[Mr.Peanut]

Could someone please tell me why inertial fore/aft are bound to different keys than secondary throttle increase/decrease? For anyone using keystrokes on a joypad it is a bit of a PITA. Why is it necessary to have two different bind sets? It does not make sense.


[Edited on 12-2-2011 by thetiebers]

[Vice]

Could someone please tell me why inertial fore/aft are bound to different keys than secondary throttle increase/decrease? For anyone using keystrokes on a joypad it is a bit of a PITA. Why is it necessary to have two different bind sets? It does not make sense.

The short answer is because when you turn off the IDS, you turn off computer assisted control, including the main engine throttle control, which is controlled with a set-match throttle system rather than a push/pull thruster system. If you kept that control active, your ship would either return to trying to match whatever speed you set with variable throttle control or suddenly start accelerating continually until you pull the control back to zero, thus negating turning off the IDS for unrestricted drift flight. However, you can use the techniques detailed below to utilize variable forward/reverse control (or variable forward/reverse thruster control using lateral thrusters):

Variable forward/reverse control is managed with the main engine via the throttle control, so the IDS needs to be activated for that control to be enabled. It's helpful to keep the IDS on an easily accessible button so you can activate variable engine control when needed quickly. You can retain drift with the IDS on by holding the opposing drift thruster key/button, then just adjust throttle to where you want it. However, it's often easier (and faster) to rotate and use a lateral/vertical thruster or the afterburner with the IDS off, depending on circumstances.

That being said, this does keep coming up for review and I am currently looking into a mode switching system where the throttle control simply converts itself to a thruster control system for forward/reverse once the IDS is turned off. The problem with this is that many players have become used to freely drifting as soon as they turn off the IDS and some may wonder why their ship suddenly behaves very differently when the IDS is turned off, continually accelerating even though they had already reached a target velocity and just wanted to drift freely. They would have to remember to pull the throttle back to zero every time they turned off the IDS to avoid this problem, adding an additional step to the process some might find annoying/negative. I'm open to feedback on this as it would be a pretty significant control change. So please post your thoughts on this here.

[Edited on 11-27-2011 by Vice]

[Busch]

I vote for keeping the control set as is. Keys may be bound as desired, within certain parameters, at least so far.

[Maarschalk]

I vote for keeping as it is. Makes more sense!.....

[Angitherias]

Vice, could you include pictures with your description next time?

haha, I'm just starting to learn to "fly" in space all over again, the whole real physics thing is fun and hard at the same time. So much to remember to do all at once, but even though I haven't played that much, keep your control sets as they are, pilots will have to learn to adapt to the mechanics of the game. It is part of what makes it unique.

[DaveK]

I am happy with it as it is - I've got intertial forward and reverse on a three way slide switch on my stick so that I don't have to keep hold of the afterburner (=forward/accelerate) or the afterburner AND reverse thrust (=reverse/decelerate) when I'm inertial

It only made sense to me when I had played enough to get comfortable with flying with and without IDS and switching between them

[Marvin]

There once was another space game with a proper thrust setup until somebody made a suggestion to change it. IIRC ... IDRC the name of the game at all.

[Angitherias]

How does reversing the thrust work?

[Maarschalk]

How does reversing the thrust work?

You press and hold the "/" Key on your Keyboard or asign that key to your joystick. For reverse afterburner use the "Tab+/" Keys!.....

[DaveK]

How does reversing the thrust work?

It can speed up your slowing down or let you back out of a situation

[Kalthios]

Vice, your idea of how to change how the throttle is implimented is the perfect way to do it.

I agree with you that some players would find the change confusing.

A solution to the confusion: When switching to INERTIAL, have fore and aft thrusters set to zero output no matter where the throttle is set, until the player moves the throttle.

Once the throttle is moved, the upper half of the throttle range increases output of main engine(s)(middle = no burn, fully up = full burn),

while the bottom half of the throttle range controls output of the retrothruster(s)(middle = no burn, fully down = full burn).

[Mr.Peanut]

Please keep in mind I am talking about the secondary throttle control, not the primary. Vice, your description of what players are used to (what is expected in transition to/from inertial) to makes perfect sense. But it only makes sense if a player has primary throttle bound to a non-self centering axis (which may be the majority of players). This will not be the case for gamepad and keyboard/mouse. Sadly, no one makes a gamepad with a proper throttle control anymore.

Is there any way to have only the keyboard bindings for secondary throttle and inertial thrust be the same? Or are primary and secondary throttle too strongly coupled?

[Edited on 11-27-2011 by Mr.Peanut]

[Vice]

A solution to the confusion: When switching to INERTIAL, have fore and aft thrusters set to zero output no matter where the throttle is set, until the player moves the throttle.

It could be possible, although many analogue devices fail to maintain a set value, resulting in twitchy signals when they device is just sitting there. It would probably produce an inconsistent behavior players would not want. And the control change described above would then still occur as soon as they moved (or even accidently bumped) the controls.

Vice, your description of what players are used to (what is expected in transition to/from inertial) to makes perfect sense. But it only makes sense if a player has primary throttle bound to a non-self centering axis (which may be the majority of players).

Primary throttle is indeed modelled after traditional 'flight control', ie not self-centering in any way.

This will not be the case for gamepad and keyboard/mouse. Sadly, no one makes a gamepad with a proper throttle control anymore.

True, many modern gamepads make for pretty sucky flight control devices. It should be possible for some of them to assign the throttle trim functions to a centering axis though (depending on what kind of profiling software is included with them). Likewise, this could also be done for forward and reverse inertial maneuvering thruster control. And yes, keyboard/mouse control won't have axis options at all for obvious reasons, but the mouse wheel is bound to throttle trim control in this way by default.

Is there any way to have only the keyboard bindings for secondary throttle and inertial thrust be the same? Or are primary and secondary throttle too strongly coupled?

They do each have their own dedicated control input system, so if you bound them together, one would control the other when you probably wouldn't want it to. If you want to try it, I can look up the line assignments in the configuration file so you could match the scancodes for them manually in notepad. But I suspect it would produce a control behavior you wouldn't want.

[Edited on 11-27-2011 by Vice]

[Mr.Peanut]

If you want to try it, I can look up the line assignments in the configuration file so you could match the scancodes for them manually in notepad. But I suspect it would produce a control behavior you wouldn't want.

I would appreciate that. Thanks.

[Edited on 11-27-2011 by Mr.Peanut]

[Vice]

The file to edit is keymap8.sw, which you can just open in notepad. Backup the file before editing. Backup the file again after editing in case you accidently try to bind something that results in the game clearing a conflict since you will be intentionally creating a key/button conflict with this procedure.

For key assignments (in case you want to bind those to a gamepad button/axis), use this scancode chart:

http://www.starwraith.com/evochronreneg ... ndcode.gif

The lines for the default key assignment for inertial forward/reverse are 43 and 44. The default values for those keys are 52 and 51 representing the period and comma keys (inertial thruster forward and inertial thruster reverse respectively).

The lines for the default device button assignment for inertial forward/reverse are 106 and 107. The default values for those buttons are 0,-1 and 0,-1. The 0 represents the device ID and starts at 0 for the first listed device. The -1 means no button has been assigned. So you'll just need to change the 0 to represent the device ID for your gamepad and the -1 to the button you want to use. If you've already mapped some buttons on the device, you can use the other values as references for which device ID to use and maybe even which button ID's to use. This may take some trial and error to determine the right button values, but you can test the values you enter in the Configure Controls > Configure key/button controls menu (holding down a button will result in its numerical value appearing and if the button is assigned to a control, a green bar will appear next to the mapped control).

The lines for the default key assignment for throttle up/down are 46 and 47 (default values 17 and 31). The lines for the default device button assignment for throttle up/down are 109 and 110 (default values 0,-1 and 0,-1).

So you can pick and choose which control pairs you want to try and link with the same values.

[Mr.Peanut]

Thanks

edit: Just gave it a spin. Works perfectly. Desired behaviour. Have mapped one gamepad axis to both secondary throttle and inertial fore/aft. Primary throttle is unmapped. This would likely be the optimal setting for most gamepad users IMO.

[Edited on 11-29-2011 by Mr.Peanut]

[Kalthios]

Is that with variable inertial fore/aft thrusters ? (push the stick a little, a little thrust, push it all the way, full thrust)

[Angitherias]

In inertial mode, it's like on/off, however much speed positive or negative forward movement, now if you spin your ship 180 degrees in inertial mode, you'll be going the exact speed in reverse.

[SeeJay]

I'm happy with how the throttle system works as it is, so I vote keep it.

[zonaiko]

I vote for keeping it the way it is. I like being able to set my desired velocity with the same thruster controls while IDS is off, without affecting my current velocity.

I'm happy using my afterburner and reverse afterburner while IDS is off.

[Star King]

Please don't change it!!!!!!