spoiler alert

TGS · Post by **TGS** » Sat Sep 18, 2010 1:00 pm

Oh how I wish you could hire NPC's to join your fleet in multiplayer. They are so extremely helpful in situations where you may not be able to find player help. And it's sort of silly to have to go to single player to get help.

I've been doing the quest and I basically have to have a fleet helping me or I wouldn't get anywhere. But a fleet of 6 hired navy guns works out nicely.

soulsacrifice · Post by **soulsacrifice** » Sat Sep 18, 2010 1:05 pm

It would be difficult (or probably impossible) to get it to be able to handle up to 10+ controllable AI for to up to 35 people at one time in the server. Would be nice if it were possible but you're just going to have to convince someone to be your wingman in mp.

[Edited on 9-18-2010 by soulsacrifice]

TGS · Post by **TGS** » Sat Sep 18, 2010 2:06 pm

Then put a limit on it?

I dunno I just think it'd be awesome to have 2-5 npc team mates in MP. Though it could get a bit dicey in pvp situations and unfair... but it'd be fun. To be honest though aside from the extra cpu power on the server... I can't see it being that bad. Unless of course the server transmits all player location data to all other players which I can't imagine it would need to do that in retrospect.

Originally posted by soulsacrifice
It would be difficult (or probably impossible) to get it to be able to handle up to 10+ controllable AI for to up to 35 people at one time in the server. Would be nice if it were possible but you're just going to have to convince someone to be your wingman in mp.

[Edited on 9-18-2010 by soulsacrifice]

TGS · Post by **TGS** » Sat Sep 18, 2010 3:57 pm

Agreed... 100% but in reality the universe is too big and there aren't THAT many players. So I think it'd be nice to have both options

Though on that note... I'm on a quest mission that I might need to pop into multiplayer to get help on lol.

Bogusheadbox · Post by **Bogusheadbox** » Sat Sep 18, 2010 5:04 pm

why not increase the cost of npc's so that you would not be able to afford many of them lots of times. it will make people earn their cash and limit the amount of NPC players would have

TGS · Post by **TGS** » Sat Sep 18, 2010 5:28 pm

That would work. To be perfectly honest given how easy it is to make money in this game I would actually like some "active" money sinks in the game... IE things that you can get that have ongoing fee's that you have to pay. Obviously you can negate it by not saving... but ultimately that hurts your ability to progress anywhere as well.

Jax_Cavalera · Post by **Jax_Cavalera** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:05 am

Don't take this as advertising as the game i'm going to reference to doesn't yet exist, however if you do know the name of the project i'm referring to, they are developing a game where you can in fact hire entire fleets of ships under your command as well as the building of your stations and i think i read cities on the infinite number of planets in the game's world.

I get the argument that MP is for versing other players but I still enjoy versing other players in CS where we each have a team and several bots that we control. it's still fun multiplayer but of cause the only condition I'd put on it would be that if the player that has hired the fleet of ships were to be destroyed in battle.. all the fleet would also be destroyed to keep things more fair and strategic for battle situations.

Anyways just thought i'd throw in that little snippet of info as I've been researching this kinda thing in these types of gams and Evochron Mercenaries to date is the most advanced space sim out there.

however that other project .. when it does eventually take flight .. excuse the lame pun... may create competition though by the time it's released i'm sure Evochron will have it's own new releases that will have extra pro's to outdo the competition still

Also as a kinda disclaimer.. being i've not played on either the engine that this "other" game will be built around yet and I'm yet to play Evochron due to hardware limitations.. I'm more just speaking from an entheusist in space sims point of view at what I'd personally find interesting to see.

Regarding the building of stations in MP and SP I think it would be possible to have any stations built in MP carry through to the SP game but it wouldn't be a bi-directional relationship for obvious reasons so stations built in SP would not be able to be brought into MP.

And these are my thoughts on this stuff.. hopefully I've not offended anyone or stepped on anyone's toes.. etc or that this post won't be taken as me attempting to hi-jack a topic or any other negative connotations that could be attached to it as I'm honestly just spilling a few thoughts/ideas/research results into the discussion.

(looking forward to next week when the update patch that fixes my tablet issues is released so i can get into the game and really take evochron for a spin XD)

[Edited on 31-1-2011 by Jax_Cavalera]

[Edited on 31-1-2011 by Jax_Cavalera]

Post by **DaveK** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:42 am

Hi

1: there have been some very interesting threads already on active money sinks (use the search button)

2: Many of us feel that we have finally found the version of Elite that we have been dreaming of since the BBC B in the early 80's. There are apparently quite a few games out there that allow you to control fleets, build empires and even fly capital ships (one I remember where you controlled a massive capital ship (every aspect of it) allowed you to also fly combat missions with your fighters and take aprt in ground battles with your marines)

Mercenary is Mercenary and is about single pilot ships in a totally freeform universe where you can make your way as you choose. You can already have help (wingmen in SP and other pilots in MP. You can get help from specialists that you hire as part of your crew.)

So if you want to be master of a fleet there are already universes you can be in - just not Evochron

Jax_Cavalera · Post by **Jax_Cavalera** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:31 pm

I don't think any game exists where you can do all the above mentioned things in multiplayer while still being able to carry the majority of your data across to singleplayer depending on which game you are referring to, one doesn't have single player and the other is only single player.

I'm not saying that the way Evo Merc plays is anything short of genius which is why after all the research I did, this is the place I have ended up at, I am saying that there may be an adaptation on the trends that Evo Merc has started that are being developed further in that direction but aren't there yet due to lack of funding and a rather recently established corporate trying to get use to managing the project at that level.

Me personally, I don't like the "Big Guy" companies and their games as they tend to be .. cash crop intended games and with that in mind a certain degree of enjoyment and satisfaction that a player wants to derive from the game is lost.

Also, for me controlling the fleet isn't about being master of a fleet, it holds several values to it that make it a satisfying experience but that experience.. I feel .. would be lost in the games you are refrring to.

Essentially the purpose I see to owning the fleet is that you can :
- add a bit more strategy to the combat experience

- have the ability to watch the AI learn and "come alive"

- that feeling of compannionship as you travel the vast emptiness of space.. (when the rest of your REAL crew aren't able to join you in game)

- I don't really get any satisfaction out of telling other players in a game what to do, I'd prefer each player to have their own AI they can do that with (but that's prolly just my ODD kicking in there.

- being able to place one of your own capital ships next to a station and setting it to only attack if attacked means you can ensure security for people that wish to access your station's services so it leaves a player that owns the ships with that sense of achieving and "providing" in a tangible form (something they can grab onto aka the fleet they worked a lot of hours of sweat to save up for and that little quirky station that it protects)

- The experience of being able to set your capital ship into AI mode so you select one of your custom designed ships from the hangar and your 2 AI units to grab another 2 ships you designed and explore the galaxy at at that micro level knowing that when you want to come back .. you'll have a "home" (capital ship you custom built) waiting for you (hopefully unless it was taken down while you were enjoying the beauty of the Evo Engine)

- I guess the other thing that leans toward AI fleets is that from my years of online gaming experience, most players don't tend to want to pally along with you they prefer to do their own thing and only occasionally travel with other players... especially if you like to keep to yourself a lot and not get as involved in the online chat side of things in game.

(and I know you'd prolly say.. if you don't wanna interract with other real players.. why play in multiplayer? well essentially I enjoy to see what other players have created..

I like to roam in a world that I know is populated by real players so when I see things like another player's capital ship parked somewhere guarding their quirky station I'd be more than tempted to jump into a smaller ship and fly around their bigger ships and just admire the craftmanship and careful thought other people have put into the placement of their stations and ships etc..

people facinate me I guess would sum that up.. and I'm not saying i'd never want to pally with other players or get involved in the community ... it's just not as important to me as being facinated by how other people have decided to use the tools the game has provided.)

I could keep going on but it'd just be extra text.. the point is that the feeling of not being locked/trapped into just combat holds a lot of merit, I'm just not sure why it's only possible to do this stuff in Single Player and not in Multi Player as well or have it as a server selectable option at least.

Anyways I get that people currently playing like the experience of developing on a single character at that micro-gaming level as you can put in more time to really personalise everything relating to the fighter/miner ship you choose to use.. I just see that it'd be building onto this and not taking away from it allowing the limitations of capital ships and fleets to be removed.

[Edited on 31-1-2011 by Jax_Cavalera]

Post by **Marvin** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:09 pm

I think you'll find that more complex "sims" are SP-only for a reason: lag. And those that try to do both SP and MP usually end up failing, for the same reason: lag. Vice is already pushing the envelope for some of us ... eventually the game will either be what it is or will go beyond what many computers can handle. Unless, of course, you don't mind lag.

Siege · Post by **Siege** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:10 pm

I also like the idea of having a fleet at my beck and command, and I think they should earn their keep too

That said, I just would like a few, after giving it some thought, having more than that would perhaps remove the merc aspect of the game and make it into an X clone. But having your own squadron of Ai that you can control to the nTh degree, a little like riftspace perhaps, interests me greatly.

also, mp ai interests me also, mostly because I don't want to be without my trusty wingmen. They are optional though, so if a player chooses to attack me while I'm being protected it's up to them if they don't have their own protection.

[Edited on 31-1-2011 by Siege]

Siege · Post by **Siege** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:16 pm

From post: 101381, Topic: tid=6410, author=Marvin wrote:I think you'll find that more complex "sims" are SP-only for a reason: lag. And those that try to do both SP and MP usually end up failing, for the same reason: lag. Vice is already pushing the envelope for some of us ... eventually the game will either be what it is or will go beyond what many computers can handle. Unless, of course, you don't mind lag.

Having left the space world for a while to play in the fantasy world of World Of Warcraft can I just say that Lag, SUCKS. So while i would LIKE to see mp ai fleet, if it's a choice, i say no to lag, and keep my little friends on sp mode only.

The trouble being is that i want my cake and to eat it to.

Jax_Cavalera · Post by **Jax_Cavalera** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:23 pm

From post: 101381, Topic: tid=6410, author=Marvin wrote:I think you'll find that more complex "sims" are SP-only for a reason: lag. And those that try to do both SP and MP usually end up failing, for the same reason: lag. Vice is already pushing the envelope for some of us ... eventually the game will either be what it is or will go beyond what many computers can handle. Unless, of course, you don't mind lag.

well I live in Australia so lag is expected when it comes to online multiplayer games of any sort

I get what you are saying though.. unless someone managed to find a way to drive such endevours beyond where they are currently at due to software engineering... we are limited to the available technologies in existance.

As a side point about lag.. the MP game already has lots of AI enemies right? wouldn't adding AI allies for players not really alter the lag on server or am I missing some logic there?

@ Siege I agree that it'd only be 3-5 AI fleet per player if it were to ever be added cause more than that would def take away from the micro management aspect of Evochron.

Siege · Post by **Siege** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:27 pm

I was thinking about that, up to ten but I think 5 or 6 would be tops, I'm also thinking that having ai fleet might lower the amount of mp ai were around, other than for running an actual contract, but that would cut down on the scenery a little, which MP already does.

You can have about 20-30 odd fleet in SP btw, not that I can imagine wanting anywhere near that many, and not to mention the navigation difficulties in Formation, the silly beggars bump into me at the station as it is

, never mind the sheer cost.

Post by **DaveK** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:40 pm

Actually I agree that Mercenary is about all the things people's imaginations want it to be. I can see why having your own (presumambly fairly mini-)fleet would appeal. Clans already provide the ability to be part of a fleet in MP (and the "leader" if you are good enough). Empire building in MP ditto with Clan territories. Some people obviously enjoy the thrill of finding something that no one has found before and probably their reputation of being successful explorers in the "here be dragons - perhaps" parts of the Universe.

I still don't see what you can do with a battleship in Mercenary though. Unless size does matter!

But I suspect that, as in WWII, capital ships would have to be the equivalent of carriers - battleships are too vulnerable according to some boasts on threads. Still that I can't see what they can be used for is probably as much a comment on my imagination than on what could be done with them!

I love this universe and I love the forum - the ideas and discussions bandied around are as much fun as the fan stories!:)

On a practical note though, laggy is bad - Mercenary for me is like creating and living in my own own novel - it would destroy the atmosphere to have stutters. Someone suggested rings around planets made of individual bits of debris - very cool eye candy - but same problem. I think that Vice does a fine job of balancing our many and varied wants against the experience and feel of the game.

Still in another few years perhaps the servers, bandwidth and our own computers will be able to handle it all without breaking into a sweat; who knows we might have the rebel alliance taking on the capital ships of the Empire navy!

Siege · Post by **Siege** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:45 pm

I think Mercenary, as the name suggests is at it's heart a smaller craft, small grouping game/single fighter craft game. I'm not sure battleships would have a place either again I've played a couple of games like that and all I really thought was WOW this thing wallows in space. I like being able to get into my small ship and go against space, though i wish cargo went up to 50/100 instead of 25

I would just like not feeling quite so alone in sp mode, and that's a mode I have to play a lot due to my system sucking.

Jax_Cavalera · Post by **Jax_Cavalera** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:38 am

The main purpose I can see for bigger ships that can carry fleets would be if they had faster maximum speeds.. similar to a "float Train" (Semi Trailer Truck) that is used to move heavy plant from jobsite to jobsite such as large excavators and cranes etc.. you need to have something that can really fly fast but the purpose of the ships it carries are that they are used to fight off the fighters that attack at the bigger transport battleships.. of cause the battleships have super firepower but that ain't much good unless ur target is also big and lacks in the agility department (aka another battleship/station)

I just get this image of the horror a player might experience as they see a monster battleship coming their way knowing that inside of it are probably 3 killer fighter pilots with their highly customised fighter ships and the thing itself if they can take it down would probably hold around 500 full cargo spaces of mined resources for the taking etc.. but the fight would be a scary .. yet also an exciting experience that players could inflict upon eachother and the universe. would be nice if you culd watch such a battle as a "fly on the hull" of a ship so to speak haha

anyways just more of the things I thought such ships could play as far as a viable role within the Evo universe.

Siege · Post by **Siege** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:03 pm

I see your point as per carriers, but again i think it would be changing evo into an X clone, which I don't think any of us want. There is a use for such ships for sure, and I can see it working if they were really expensive to buy, and I mean REALLY expensive. However with such things as a Mantis drive speed isn't really all that much of a factor in the Evo universe. Moving your fleet in such a manner would be good for shock value if for no other reason lol. Storage would also be nice for large commodities trades but I'm just not sure the engine is set up in such a way as to allow for such a class of ships.

It's fun to ponder though I agree.

Jax_Cavalera · Post by **Jax_Cavalera** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:43 pm

yeah i think the last thing any of us want is to lose that merc feel.. I guess once I can finally play the game upon the release of the new tablet pen / mouse input update.. I will get a better feel of how relevant each type of ship is and it's role within the Evo game.

I also like the idea of having extra storage space for mining.. If nothing else the Battleship/Carrier style ship's role would be to keep the fighter/miner/trade ships inside a protected zone (the safety of the bigger ships hull/shields/guns) the speed thing was just more a theorised idea based on what i've read of Evo but if the speed portion isn't that relevant i guess keeping the small fleet together as you travel through space would be 1 use.. prolly not big enough to justify it's additoin

.. having not played the X series as the Singleplayer aspect of a game structure like the x series reviews I've read would absolutely bore my brains out, I can't really say I'd ever want to see a game with so much going for it like Evo Merc replicate those same boring traits.

Anyways it's always fun to imagine cool scenarios and the ultimate freedom from reality that games are designed to bring XD

Post by **DaveK** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:44 pm

spoiler alert

There would have to be something of great value to mine. With 5 bays and 25 units per bay and a couple of thousand credits per unit of platinum I can make 250 000 credits per run and it takes about 10 - 15 minutes to mine. Trading weaponry I can make 10 times that amount with one fulcrum torpedo trade. It's possible to carry 13 of the darlings (8 hardpoints plus 5 bays) making a total gain of 35 000 000 credits per run which takes about 10 - 15 minutes

You can't dock at a station so there would have to be a ferry system to you capital ship (perhaps another job we could do

- for a fee!) but mining is never going to pay for the running costs of a big ship. Vice might "lose" station busters from the game and allow capital ships to be hired to do the job at 250% costs of doing it ( it wouldn't be hard to cost fuel and missiles, multiply by 2.5 to get an idea of what the station take down would be worth to the mercs owning the capital ship). Then there could really be a furball between the Clan defenders and the merc fighter squadron with the capital ship providing fleet cover until it can get close enough to take the station out. The clan defenders might also hire a capital ship (or jointly own a couple) which would give a reason for a capital ship engagement

The mind (and I suspect my poor PC's processors) boggle!:D

[Edited on 1-2-2011 by DaveK]

[Edited on 1-2-2011 by DaveK]

Siege · Post by **Siege** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:40 pm

It is an interesting idea for sure, I'm just not sure the engine would support that. It's always nice to dream though

Post by **DaveK** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:05 pm

We just need bigger engines (>class 10!!)

:P

Jax_Cavalera · Post by **Jax_Cavalera** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:31 am

the more I do hear about what can currently be done the more excited I'm getting in anticipation of the update release ~~

I guess I like the concept of a player being able to provide a service to other mercenaries .. kinda like the old dogs on server who've been on since ages would have the kinda funding to provide services in the Evo world such as these larger ships near commonly minded locations..

then miner mercs would be able to mine and sell their mined stuff off to the players that own the battle/carrier ships (or stations i guess .. not sure how all that works currently in game yet) but basically they'd sell it to the bigger ship at a cheaper price than to fly and drop it off themselves..

then cause the bigger ships can hold so much more they would be able to sell in bulk for the profit minus what they were offering as a buy price to players mining the stuff back near the mining zones.

not sure if that makes sense but the description would be hard to really crystalise any clearer in a rushed post whilst at work like I currently am doing haha

Siege · Post by **Siege** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:45 pm

Well currently stations are merely a way of opening up a trade route, depending on the type of course, Building a station doesn't net you any cash, other than the fact that you get a license free when you build a trade station. I must admit i like the idea of having a nice big well I suppose cargo capital ship would be very cool, I could go do my mining and dock, dump cargo and repeat until it was full up. Though in all honesty being able to fill my cargo bays to a larger amount would also please me, like say 50 instead of 25, this could even be an optional extra that fits in an equipment slot.

Large ships though, do sorta dock with stations all the time, I remember someone saying that you couldn't do that, but the ai ones do if you watch them.

[edit]

I've just realised that we have totally hijacked this thread, sorry admins, i suggest that we create a new thread for the purposes of discussing this idea further, if you like I can do that, just let me know in a u2u or something. But we shouldn't continue to natter on here about this subjects as it is actually against the rules of the board which i just happened to read. Again sorry moderators!

[Edited on 2-2-2011 by Siege]

Jax_Cavalera · Post by **Jax_Cavalera** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:58 pm

I thought we were still remaining relatively close to the initial opening post but perhaps we are borderlining on hyjacking the thread with more focus being put onto the capital ships/cargo capital ships and less on the fleets side of the topic. appologies if this is the case