Which Control Device Do You Play Evochron With?
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MMaggio
- Captain
- Posts: 1542
- Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2003 1:56 pm
- Location: Jupiter, Fl
joy
Most people use the rotary knobs for up & down, left & right thrusters! They have a detent for "Off" and are easily banded to increase the neutral position. Does require the use of SST.
\"To kill hubris with humility is a goal rarely achieved by men\"
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Storm
- Lieutenant
- Posts: 218
- Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:54 pm
joy
MMaggio;
Unfortunately the SST was a bust.
Apparantly these problems have a lot to do (mainly) with 64 bit Vista, the programmers at Saitek still don't have their act together yet.
The basic X52 Pro drivers seem stable enough (quite a bit more stable than the ~2007 versions), I can still use the controller, I just can't run the SST.
The "Magic Mouse" drivers that are installed *as part of* the SST seem to work OK (this component is needed for the Mouse Ministick, Mouse Right Click / Mouse Left Click, in order for it to emulate a mouse); these drivers get loaded automatically at startup (even if the Profiler is NOT loaded).
But I am having the same problems that I did with the SST that I did back in 2007.
(a) Crashes. In 2007, sometimes there was just an occasional crash. But what would almost always bring a crash would be to delete the three "Mode+Pinkie" modes (shiftstates) , in order to release the Pinkie Switch from being a "Shift Button", so that you could actually program functions for it. For the 2007 software, there was a well known but not-understood stupid fix: CLEAR the startup profile and clear the current profile before invoking the editor, especially if one is going to mess with shiftstates. That helped maybe 75% of the time. Now though with the current version that does not help.
(b) Resource problem, leading to VERY LONG restart and shutdown times. When you install the SST software, it puts icons in the SysTray (of course you know this...)... if you examine your system configuration the Saitek X52 Pro *drivers* are loaded at startup (and they are fine), but also two items associated with the Profile Editor are also loaded at startup. The Profiler has a "hard time" releasing the computer if you want to restart or shut down. It doesn't matter if you don't have a profile loaded and you aren't even using it. In 2007, 5+ minutes sometimes. I found a solution and posted in teh Saitek Forums back in 2007; what you do is simply DISABLE the startup load using the System Configuration Utility, and reboot. Then the profiler is nOT loaded. The controller still works OK (you just have to use whatever binding system is native to the games); the "Magic Mouse" thing still works. Then, whenever you wanted to actually run the profile editor / and / or / profiler (the utility that loads and implements a profile), you just have ro run them manually, and load a profile. When your done, you have to clear the profile, click on the systray and close the Profile Editor and Launcher. It still takes a long time to close, but not as long (for some reason) as releasing itself for rebooting.
Unfortunately, I cannot get the SST to run without crashing. I know from previous experience that posting in the Saitek forum will not help. I checked the forum this evening, a lot of complaints that pleas to tech support go unanswered.
Oh well. I still came up with a good set of bindings for the controller, and it is working great. The only thing I WISH I could do was to transmit an ALT F2 for a max jump (I've got the standard jump bound to a button).
(edit)
I take it ALL back.
That is, I practiced with the X52 Pro in a "safe" system that I had pacified.
Jumped into a Fair system, tried to take a few contracts and I just can't fly right. I just can't seem to get the joystick and throttle positioned properly.... ship moves like a ruptured duck that has had too much to drink. Did MUCH better with a mouse, got fairly good flying that way.
Maybe a smaller, lighter joystick with a built in throttle would work.
Uninstalled all the Saitek stuff.
[Edited on 1-21-2009 by Storm]
Unfortunately the SST was a bust.
Apparantly these problems have a lot to do (mainly) with 64 bit Vista, the programmers at Saitek still don't have their act together yet.
The basic X52 Pro drivers seem stable enough (quite a bit more stable than the ~2007 versions), I can still use the controller, I just can't run the SST.
The "Magic Mouse" drivers that are installed *as part of* the SST seem to work OK (this component is needed for the Mouse Ministick, Mouse Right Click / Mouse Left Click, in order for it to emulate a mouse); these drivers get loaded automatically at startup (even if the Profiler is NOT loaded).
But I am having the same problems that I did with the SST that I did back in 2007.
(a) Crashes. In 2007, sometimes there was just an occasional crash. But what would almost always bring a crash would be to delete the three "Mode+Pinkie" modes (shiftstates) , in order to release the Pinkie Switch from being a "Shift Button", so that you could actually program functions for it. For the 2007 software, there was a well known but not-understood stupid fix: CLEAR the startup profile and clear the current profile before invoking the editor, especially if one is going to mess with shiftstates. That helped maybe 75% of the time. Now though with the current version that does not help.
(b) Resource problem, leading to VERY LONG restart and shutdown times. When you install the SST software, it puts icons in the SysTray (of course you know this...)... if you examine your system configuration the Saitek X52 Pro *drivers* are loaded at startup (and they are fine), but also two items associated with the Profile Editor are also loaded at startup. The Profiler has a "hard time" releasing the computer if you want to restart or shut down. It doesn't matter if you don't have a profile loaded and you aren't even using it. In 2007, 5+ minutes sometimes. I found a solution and posted in teh Saitek Forums back in 2007; what you do is simply DISABLE the startup load using the System Configuration Utility, and reboot. Then the profiler is nOT loaded. The controller still works OK (you just have to use whatever binding system is native to the games); the "Magic Mouse" thing still works. Then, whenever you wanted to actually run the profile editor / and / or / profiler (the utility that loads and implements a profile), you just have ro run them manually, and load a profile. When your done, you have to clear the profile, click on the systray and close the Profile Editor and Launcher. It still takes a long time to close, but not as long (for some reason) as releasing itself for rebooting.
Unfortunately, I cannot get the SST to run without crashing. I know from previous experience that posting in the Saitek forum will not help. I checked the forum this evening, a lot of complaints that pleas to tech support go unanswered.
Oh well. I still came up with a good set of bindings for the controller, and it is working great. The only thing I WISH I could do was to transmit an ALT F2 for a max jump (I've got the standard jump bound to a button).
(edit)
I take it ALL back.
That is, I practiced with the X52 Pro in a "safe" system that I had pacified.
Jumped into a Fair system, tried to take a few contracts and I just can't fly right. I just can't seem to get the joystick and throttle positioned properly.... ship moves like a ruptured duck that has had too much to drink. Did MUCH better with a mouse, got fairly good flying that way.
Maybe a smaller, lighter joystick with a built in throttle would work.
Uninstalled all the Saitek stuff.
[Edited on 1-21-2009 by Storm]
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MMaggio
- Captain
- Posts: 1542
- Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2003 1:56 pm
- Location: Jupiter, Fl
joy
I confess that I have never used, nor ever will, a Vista OS.
I have used every other OS in between and have NEVER encountered the problems you are referring to.
I guess I'm just naive.
I have used every other OS in between and have NEVER encountered the problems you are referring to.
I guess I'm just naive.
\"To kill hubris with humility is a goal rarely achieved by men\"
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Storm
- Lieutenant
- Posts: 218
- Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:54 pm
joy
No, not nieve... its just a "Vista Catch Up" thing.
After Vista was first released, the word was "DONT get the 64 bit version because no drivers will work in it". Thats an oversimplification. I bought my printer (a Brothers multifunction print/copy/scan/fax) about a month after I got this system... I called thier tech support first, they said that the drivers were not QUITE ready for release. At the time, it seemed a bit risky but I needed a printer, and in the meantime it was at least a stand lone copier.
They said would send me an email. About a month went by, and they had drivers and software. I installed it, it worked fine.
On the other hand...
BEAM robotics is another hobby of mine;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BEAM_robotics
and I have built a few gadgets myself. Mark Tilden (mentioned on the wiki site) now works for WowWee toys;
http://wowwee.com/
and he designed the RoboSapien and other toys, based on BEAM principles. I have a RoboQuad and a RoboBoa.
There is a handheld RoboRemote that you can interface with your computer, and can store long sequences of programming and can "talk to" most of the Robo series. I bout it last year. They STILL do not have Vista64 compatible software for it. When it was first released, they just said "Vista compatible, download from our website". Several people in teh biggest forum for this kind of thing ran it in 32 bit Vista with no problems. It crashed and refused to work on my system. WowWee had me send a couple of techical reports and error streams.
"Oh - it looks like it will not work in a 64 bit operating system - sorry".
They STILL don't have a 64 bit version.
Saitek's software is also lagging. Their forum is full of reports, pleas and complaints from 64 bit Vista users. Saitek rarely answers back.
NOT the customers fault. What... "You should have waited at least a dozen years before investing in the latest operating system - not our fault!"?
At any rate, I just can't get the ergonomics to work. I can set up a good set of bindings without the SST, but for whatever reason I can fly much better with a mouse. The throttle "ministick" mouse emulation is too slow. There are times when I need to RAPIDLY work with it. There are times when I need to fly and hit keyboard commands quickly. I can do that with a standard mouse.
After Vista was first released, the word was "DONT get the 64 bit version because no drivers will work in it". Thats an oversimplification. I bought my printer (a Brothers multifunction print/copy/scan/fax) about a month after I got this system... I called thier tech support first, they said that the drivers were not QUITE ready for release. At the time, it seemed a bit risky but I needed a printer, and in the meantime it was at least a stand lone copier.
They said would send me an email. About a month went by, and they had drivers and software. I installed it, it worked fine.
On the other hand...
BEAM robotics is another hobby of mine;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BEAM_robotics
and I have built a few gadgets myself. Mark Tilden (mentioned on the wiki site) now works for WowWee toys;
http://wowwee.com/
and he designed the RoboSapien and other toys, based on BEAM principles. I have a RoboQuad and a RoboBoa.
There is a handheld RoboRemote that you can interface with your computer, and can store long sequences of programming and can "talk to" most of the Robo series. I bout it last year. They STILL do not have Vista64 compatible software for it. When it was first released, they just said "Vista compatible, download from our website". Several people in teh biggest forum for this kind of thing ran it in 32 bit Vista with no problems. It crashed and refused to work on my system. WowWee had me send a couple of techical reports and error streams.
"Oh - it looks like it will not work in a 64 bit operating system - sorry".
They STILL don't have a 64 bit version.
Saitek's software is also lagging. Their forum is full of reports, pleas and complaints from 64 bit Vista users. Saitek rarely answers back.
NOT the customers fault. What... "You should have waited at least a dozen years before investing in the latest operating system - not our fault!"?
At any rate, I just can't get the ergonomics to work. I can set up a good set of bindings without the SST, but for whatever reason I can fly much better with a mouse. The throttle "ministick" mouse emulation is too slow. There are times when I need to RAPIDLY work with it. There are times when I need to fly and hit keyboard commands quickly. I can do that with a standard mouse.
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Storm
- Lieutenant
- Posts: 218
- Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:54 pm
joy
Actually - when is someone going to design a *fully integrated* game controller that doesn't requirwe a lot of fuss, software updates to function? One compatible with ANY OS and PC, as long as theer is a USB port?
(Saitek? READ THIS PLEASE! If not you, then someone else...)
A sturdy keyboard. Some programmable function buttons, located in a good place(s) on the keyboard... programming with a minimum of fuss. It might be possible to do this WITHOUT special software; the unit itself could have enough memory for small but useful command sequences, and some firmware. Just a fairly simple driver to handle throttle/joystick data.
For example press the PROG key, then the target key (they could be labeled GMA-GMx, or GM1-GMx or something), then a sequence, press the PROG key again, you hear a beep and the LED behind the game key lights up - indicating a sequence is stored in it. To change (edit) a sequence, just overwrite whats there by doing it again. Wanna clear it? PROG -> GM1 -> PROG.
A small but sturdy throttle control MOUNTED on the left side. Maybe 2 - 3 simple buttons is all you need... for afterburners and/or other flight related things.
A small but sturdy joystick MOUNTED on the right side; at most maybe three buttons and a hat. Three axis.
Buttons on the throttle / joystick (THR1, ... JOY1 ...) program the same way as on the special keys on the keyboard.
A couple of buttons to help redefine how the throttle / joystick will operate... like "analog" potentiometer data, or characters (for example programming for rolling, if the game needed that).
When I say small, I don't mean "elf hands", but sturdy, simple, elegant, usable by most adults (except for maybe Andre the Giant).
And lastly, you can customize it. The throttle / joystick mount on the sides of the keyboard in a sturdy fashion (bolts, locking tabs, whatever)... female connector on both sides of the throttle and joystick, male connectors on the keyboard. You can switch what sides of the keyboard you need to mount them. (I'm a "righty", but "lefties" might appreciate it).
I would BUY this.
(Saitek? READ THIS PLEASE! If not you, then someone else...)
A sturdy keyboard. Some programmable function buttons, located in a good place(s) on the keyboard... programming with a minimum of fuss. It might be possible to do this WITHOUT special software; the unit itself could have enough memory for small but useful command sequences, and some firmware. Just a fairly simple driver to handle throttle/joystick data.
For example press the PROG key, then the target key (they could be labeled GMA-GMx, or GM1-GMx or something), then a sequence, press the PROG key again, you hear a beep and the LED behind the game key lights up - indicating a sequence is stored in it. To change (edit) a sequence, just overwrite whats there by doing it again. Wanna clear it? PROG -> GM1 -> PROG.
A small but sturdy throttle control MOUNTED on the left side. Maybe 2 - 3 simple buttons is all you need... for afterburners and/or other flight related things.
A small but sturdy joystick MOUNTED on the right side; at most maybe three buttons and a hat. Three axis.
Buttons on the throttle / joystick (THR1, ... JOY1 ...) program the same way as on the special keys on the keyboard.
A couple of buttons to help redefine how the throttle / joystick will operate... like "analog" potentiometer data, or characters (for example programming for rolling, if the game needed that).
When I say small, I don't mean "elf hands", but sturdy, simple, elegant, usable by most adults (except for maybe Andre the Giant).
And lastly, you can customize it. The throttle / joystick mount on the sides of the keyboard in a sturdy fashion (bolts, locking tabs, whatever)... female connector on both sides of the throttle and joystick, male connectors on the keyboard. You can switch what sides of the keyboard you need to mount them. (I'm a "righty", but "lefties" might appreciate it).
I would BUY this.
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Storm
- Lieutenant
- Posts: 218
- Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:54 pm
joy
Maybe this post will help another Vista 64 user if they have problems.
Okay - got things sorted out again, this time I think for good.
First, I shoved things around on my desk again. I put my keyboard, monitor, speakers and the X52 pro on one *end* of the desk, and everything else on the other end, and that leaves room to use both the X52 pro and the mouse - I can access both when I need to. Its also very roomier now.
I recieved some info from a user in the Saitek forum. Special considerations need to be made for Vista (at least Vista 64) users.
He suggested to go ahead and use the current X52 Pro drivers for Vista 64, BUT to use the *previous* version of the SST.
It worked. It works flawlessly.
It has only one bug... if the profile launcher ("Profiler", the active program that loads and implements profiles as opposed to the Profile Editor) is active when you restart or shut down, the system takes a LONG time to release (I didn't time it, but it was at least 3-5 minutes before Vista even started to restart, and even then it took a VERY long time to go through the restart process - same thing for a shutdown).
If in the system tray (new Vista term "Notification Area") you right click the Profiler and click "Close" to end it and get it out of memory, its a mistake because it doesn't really work right. It just stays there for *over 10 minutes*. Even when it eventually disappears from the SysTray, the restart takes a long time - the program ProfilerU.exe leaves a "fishhook" or something in memory, and interferes. In other words the Vista 64 bit version of the SST does not do a good job of un-allocating itself.
The trick is to right click a blank spot in the notification area and invoke Task manager. Under the Processes tab, select "ProfilerU" and click the "End Process" button. It will still take a couple of minutes, and you should wait a couple of minutes more before trying to restart or shutdown, but the process is a lot shorter this way. Make sure you "clear profile" first before doing this.
One more thing, after installing the SST the System Configuration utility should be invoked... under Services, Saitek DirectOutput will be there and it will be checked... thats fine, that is just the joystick driver. Under Startup, there will be two items from the manufacturer Saitek; "Saitek SD6 Software", and "Configuration Software". Those should be unchecked after installing the SST to keep the SST from being loaded automatically upon every startup.
You can then load things manually just when you need to. Load the Profile Editor manually and separately when you need to create or edit a profile. When your done, simply close the Editor.
Load the Profiler, and its icon will appear in the Notification Area ("SysTray"). Right click on it to load any profiles. You only need to do this when playing a game. Afterwords, do the ending process detailed above to end the Profiler.
You can access either ("Profile Editor" and "Profiler") by clicking Start and in the Start Search box just enter "prof". The two programs will be there.
Using the new software (which is actually older software) I created a profile for Evochron Renegades, and played in Virgo... achieving the change in system rep from Fair to Good. Visited MP for a while on two occasions. No problems, and now the Saitek is really shining.
[Edited on 1-22-2009 by Storm]
Okay - got things sorted out again, this time I think for good.
First, I shoved things around on my desk again. I put my keyboard, monitor, speakers and the X52 pro on one *end* of the desk, and everything else on the other end, and that leaves room to use both the X52 pro and the mouse - I can access both when I need to. Its also very roomier now.
I recieved some info from a user in the Saitek forum. Special considerations need to be made for Vista (at least Vista 64) users.
He suggested to go ahead and use the current X52 Pro drivers for Vista 64, BUT to use the *previous* version of the SST.
It worked. It works flawlessly.
It has only one bug... if the profile launcher ("Profiler", the active program that loads and implements profiles as opposed to the Profile Editor) is active when you restart or shut down, the system takes a LONG time to release (I didn't time it, but it was at least 3-5 minutes before Vista even started to restart, and even then it took a VERY long time to go through the restart process - same thing for a shutdown).
If in the system tray (new Vista term "Notification Area") you right click the Profiler and click "Close" to end it and get it out of memory, its a mistake because it doesn't really work right. It just stays there for *over 10 minutes*. Even when it eventually disappears from the SysTray, the restart takes a long time - the program ProfilerU.exe leaves a "fishhook" or something in memory, and interferes. In other words the Vista 64 bit version of the SST does not do a good job of un-allocating itself.
The trick is to right click a blank spot in the notification area and invoke Task manager. Under the Processes tab, select "ProfilerU" and click the "End Process" button. It will still take a couple of minutes, and you should wait a couple of minutes more before trying to restart or shutdown, but the process is a lot shorter this way. Make sure you "clear profile" first before doing this.
One more thing, after installing the SST the System Configuration utility should be invoked... under Services, Saitek DirectOutput will be there and it will be checked... thats fine, that is just the joystick driver. Under Startup, there will be two items from the manufacturer Saitek; "Saitek SD6 Software", and "Configuration Software". Those should be unchecked after installing the SST to keep the SST from being loaded automatically upon every startup.
You can then load things manually just when you need to. Load the Profile Editor manually and separately when you need to create or edit a profile. When your done, simply close the Editor.
Load the Profiler, and its icon will appear in the Notification Area ("SysTray"). Right click on it to load any profiles. You only need to do this when playing a game. Afterwords, do the ending process detailed above to end the Profiler.
You can access either ("Profile Editor" and "Profiler") by clicking Start and in the Start Search box just enter "prof". The two programs will be there.
Using the new software (which is actually older software) I created a profile for Evochron Renegades, and played in Virgo... achieving the change in system rep from Fair to Good. Visited MP for a while on two occasions. No problems, and now the Saitek is really shining.
[Edited on 1-22-2009 by Storm]
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Heavy Armor
- Ensign
- Posts: 17
- Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:37 pm
- Location: White, Georgia, USA
joy
Well, I got my Cyborg X in yesterday, and got it all set up today. Boy is it different from using a mouse! I find the mouse to be much more accurate (the X seems to take a bit of cranking to register), but it's kinda' cool to have a stick. I'm still trying to get used to all the buttons... I'm not even using half of them yet, let alone getting into the Shift key features.
The throttle is a neat contraption. It's a split throttle that can be locked and unlocked to operate independently or together. I'm using the left side for actual throttle controls, and the right for the mining beam. I'm having way too much fun "throwing the switch" to turn it on! I've also set up my inertial thrusters to work off the hat switch, which feels pretty good.
Dogfights have been messy.
Maybe a few more days and I'll get the hang of the new controller.
~HA
The throttle is a neat contraption. It's a split throttle that can be locked and unlocked to operate independently or together. I'm using the left side for actual throttle controls, and the right for the mining beam. I'm having way too much fun "throwing the switch" to turn it on! I've also set up my inertial thrusters to work off the hat switch, which feels pretty good.
Dogfights have been messy.
Maybe a few more days and I'll get the hang of the new controller.~HA
\"Nothing is boring when you\'re wearing armor.\" ~Maxim Magazine
-
Storm
- Lieutenant
- Posts: 218
- Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:54 pm
joy
Heavy Armor...
Very much agree. I learned ER and played it quite a bit using just the "Mouse Normal" mode. At first I couldn't fly all that well with the joystick/throttle (X52 Pro).
There WERE software issues (having trouble at first with the SST, but I found out that a previous version of the SST plus a different version of the GM3200 Gaming Mouse driver would fix things - and they HAVE, for the most part).
The main thing though was controller placement. I had to re-arrange my (small) desk a few times before I could position my keyboard, throttle, joystick AND mouse where I could use all of them easily. Then it all came "magically together".
Your stick has an integrated throttle, which is nice... I've had two like that (DOS / Win95 / W98 era)... a Gravis Phoenix and a Gravis Firebird (really liked the Firebird). Before that I had a Thrustmaster FCS, which was more like what i have now. YOu can just grab the thing and hold it, everything you need is right there, and desk space isn't an issue.
Ditto on inertial mode. My joystick has two hats, POV1 I am using for L/R/U/D views, but POV2 I have set up to do 4 things "often used in combat", (1L) Inertial On/Off, (2R) Cycle Target Subsystem, (3U) Target Central Object in Gunsight, (4D) Match Speed with Target. Works pretty well.
You'll get the buttons sorted out.... it will be fun to finalize your joystick profile.
One thing I did was to search the web until I found good pics of the X52 Pro joystick / throttle, a "head on" view. I wanted a CLEAR representation of all of the controls from the viewpoint of the player.
In Paint Shop Pro (any paint application will do), converted it to grayscale, converted to a negative image, played with the brightness / contrast, filled the background and certain other areas in white. This made it very printer friendly - on hardcopy, it looks like a "ghost image", kind of a light "etching-like look"... uses very little ink.
Saved that as a template. Then, drawing from my "RENEGADES" profile, I labeled each button, "colored in" teh LEDs (like I have them colored for this particular game), and printed it.
I will edit this shortly with a link to an image, you can see what I mean.
Have fun.
(EDIT)
Here is a link to what I mean....
http://www.flickr.com/photos/34159828@N ... 3/sizes/o/
(edit - changed settings)
I Printed it, used paperclips to attach it to the side of a small cardboard box, and placed it on top of my printer... basically it is just to the left of my flatscreen monitor and "high up" so that it is easy to see just by glancing at it. The image is archived... in case my computer dies, and I can't play ER for awhile, and need a "refresher" later. You could do the same for your joystick if you feel the need. I used to do this for all of my programmable controllers, the profiles and "cheat sheets" for all games were archived in the same place.
[Edited on 1-26-2009 by Storm]
[Edited on 1-30-2009 by Storm]
Very much agree. I learned ER and played it quite a bit using just the "Mouse Normal" mode. At first I couldn't fly all that well with the joystick/throttle (X52 Pro).
There WERE software issues (having trouble at first with the SST, but I found out that a previous version of the SST plus a different version of the GM3200 Gaming Mouse driver would fix things - and they HAVE, for the most part).
The main thing though was controller placement. I had to re-arrange my (small) desk a few times before I could position my keyboard, throttle, joystick AND mouse where I could use all of them easily. Then it all came "magically together".
Your stick has an integrated throttle, which is nice... I've had two like that (DOS / Win95 / W98 era)... a Gravis Phoenix and a Gravis Firebird (really liked the Firebird). Before that I had a Thrustmaster FCS, which was more like what i have now. YOu can just grab the thing and hold it, everything you need is right there, and desk space isn't an issue.
Ditto on inertial mode. My joystick has two hats, POV1 I am using for L/R/U/D views, but POV2 I have set up to do 4 things "often used in combat", (1L) Inertial On/Off, (2R) Cycle Target Subsystem, (3U) Target Central Object in Gunsight, (4D) Match Speed with Target. Works pretty well.
You'll get the buttons sorted out.... it will be fun to finalize your joystick profile.
One thing I did was to search the web until I found good pics of the X52 Pro joystick / throttle, a "head on" view. I wanted a CLEAR representation of all of the controls from the viewpoint of the player.
In Paint Shop Pro (any paint application will do), converted it to grayscale, converted to a negative image, played with the brightness / contrast, filled the background and certain other areas in white. This made it very printer friendly - on hardcopy, it looks like a "ghost image", kind of a light "etching-like look"... uses very little ink.
Saved that as a template. Then, drawing from my "RENEGADES" profile, I labeled each button, "colored in" teh LEDs (like I have them colored for this particular game), and printed it.
I will edit this shortly with a link to an image, you can see what I mean.
Have fun.
(EDIT)
Here is a link to what I mean....
http://www.flickr.com/photos/34159828@N ... 3/sizes/o/
(edit - changed settings)
I Printed it, used paperclips to attach it to the side of a small cardboard box, and placed it on top of my printer... basically it is just to the left of my flatscreen monitor and "high up" so that it is easy to see just by glancing at it. The image is archived... in case my computer dies, and I can't play ER for awhile, and need a "refresher" later. You could do the same for your joystick if you feel the need. I used to do this for all of my programmable controllers, the profiles and "cheat sheets" for all games were archived in the same place.
[Edited on 1-26-2009 by Storm]
[Edited on 1-30-2009 by Storm]
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warsign
- Captain
- Posts: 1775
- Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:04 am
joy
I bought Logitec 3d pro about 3 weeks ago.
I like it. It's cheap and durable also no dead zones nearly.
But I will buy Saitek X series, I think next month.
I talked to my friend MMaggio and understood that, best joystick is Saitek X52 Pro for now!!!
[Edited on 1-27-2009 by warsign]
I like it. It's cheap and durable also no dead zones nearly.
But I will buy Saitek X series, I think next month.
I talked to my friend MMaggio and understood that, best joystick is Saitek X52 Pro for now!!!
[Edited on 1-27-2009 by warsign]
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Storm
- Lieutenant
- Posts: 218
- Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:54 pm
joy
Originally posted by warsign
I bought Logitec 3d pro about 3 weeks ago.
I like it. It's cheap and durable also no dead zones nearly.
But I will buy Saitek X series, I think next month.
I talked to my friend MMaggio and understood that, best joystick is Saitek X52 Pro right now!!!
Warsign...
You can visit their forum now, and copy advice/tips from people who already have their products.
When you visit the forum as anonymous guest, you only see three main areas.
"Common Fixes" is the most important one, anyway, and it is open for reading by everyone.
Some of the Saitek software can have some problems on certain systems, and this forum is probably the best place to find solutions and ask for help.
When you register, and log on as a member, the rest of the areas of the forum are opened - 21 more areas, in fact.
Here is the link:
http://www.saitekforum.com/
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tk7223
- Lieutenant
- Posts: 210
- Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:01 am
- Location: North Georgia, USA
joy
I gotta vote for x52...I also have a ch pro series combat/throttle/pedal and they are good for modern combat sims...but the x52 is much more 'futuristic'. Go XP...ban Vista(IMO)...and I rarely have to touch the x52 profile software. Most games I play (even the old ones) are easily adaptable for the x52. Also, x52 has two ways to mount. First it comes with suction cups. If those aren't working for you, you can remove them and there are mounting holes for bolting them down. No more controller chaos during high energy combat!!!
Now...if they would make a ForceFeedback version of the x52......
Now...if they would make a ForceFeedback version of the x52......
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49rTbird
- Captain
- Posts: 2959
- Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:57 pm
- Location: Pinole,Ca,USA,Earth,Orion Spur,Milkyway, Etc.
joy
I left the suction cups on and mounted both x52 units to a piece of wood using deck screws tightened just enough to take out the play. I can now unscrew them and still use them with the suction cups if needed. 
Explore! Explore! Explore! \"There is no going back (Yet) so Make Today Count!
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Rimmer
- Ensign
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:39 am
joy
Hi StormOriginally posted by Storm
Here is a link to what I mean....
http://www.flickr.com/photos/34159828@N ... 3/sizes/o/
That flickr image link doesn't work any more, any chance you can repost it for the curious please?
Cheers
Rimmer
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Storm
- Lieutenant
- Posts: 218
- Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:54 pm
joy
Rimmer:
Restored, here is the link:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/34159828@N06/
"blank":
Already explained how the image was processed... to create a "washed out ghost look" that was printer friendly, conserving ink.
I only spent a few minutes on it. Its crude, I had to "sketch in" some of the controls manually, but functional.
Something I intend to do when I get around to it is to make something more "schematic" / line-drawn. I'm too lazy (for this particular thing) to paint it by hand, so I will have to find the original images on the web that I used; maybe in PaintShopPro5 I can use an edge function or a TraceContour to create a "schematic".
This can be used for the X52 Standard (as well as the Pro), the differences are minor (Pro has maybe 3-4 buttons more) and the layout is the same.
"RENEGADES":
What I use for Renegades / Legends. Its been revised a couple of times. The commands for Legends is the same, the only addition is the 'e' key for the Stealth Generator; so I use this Saitek profile for both. If I feel I have a need for it (I haven't encountered the Stealth Generator yet, just used the Stealth-X in Renegades), I would probably bind it (within the game) to button 39; the rightmost wheel on the base of the throttle (used to control the MFD brightness etc).
(edit); Actually since I re-arranged my desk (with a hired team of ancient Egyptian pyramid engineers), I am not using the throttle/mouse anymore... if I want to bind to the Stealth Generator, I might redefine the throttle mouse functions in the profile editor.
I don't like to use shifted modes, and I like to have a specific function for the Pinkie Switch, so in the Saitek SST the three "MODE + PINKIE" columns were deleted (this is what you HAVE to do if you want a profile that uses the Pinkie for specific functions... as opposed to Pinkie = shift).
This profile was necessary for two things (otherwise you could just not bother with a Saitek profile, and just use native bindings from within Renegades / Legends);
(a) MAX JUMP (the main thing requiring a profile)
(b) REBALANCE WEAPONS / SHIELDS. The Precision Slider was banded for this... and a little flaky, so the middle 20%-80% band is defined to "do nothing" and the "[" and "]" keys use only 20% on the edges.
I also set the two joystick hats to 4-way as opposed to 8-way, and the throttle hat to 8-way.
[Edited on 2-8-2009 by Storm]
Restored, here is the link:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/34159828@N06/
"blank":
Already explained how the image was processed... to create a "washed out ghost look" that was printer friendly, conserving ink.
I only spent a few minutes on it. Its crude, I had to "sketch in" some of the controls manually, but functional.
Something I intend to do when I get around to it is to make something more "schematic" / line-drawn. I'm too lazy (for this particular thing) to paint it by hand, so I will have to find the original images on the web that I used; maybe in PaintShopPro5 I can use an edge function or a TraceContour to create a "schematic".
This can be used for the X52 Standard (as well as the Pro), the differences are minor (Pro has maybe 3-4 buttons more) and the layout is the same.
"RENEGADES":
What I use for Renegades / Legends. Its been revised a couple of times. The commands for Legends is the same, the only addition is the 'e' key for the Stealth Generator; so I use this Saitek profile for both. If I feel I have a need for it (I haven't encountered the Stealth Generator yet, just used the Stealth-X in Renegades), I would probably bind it (within the game) to button 39; the rightmost wheel on the base of the throttle (used to control the MFD brightness etc).
(edit); Actually since I re-arranged my desk (with a hired team of ancient Egyptian pyramid engineers), I am not using the throttle/mouse anymore... if I want to bind to the Stealth Generator, I might redefine the throttle mouse functions in the profile editor.
I don't like to use shifted modes, and I like to have a specific function for the Pinkie Switch, so in the Saitek SST the three "MODE + PINKIE" columns were deleted (this is what you HAVE to do if you want a profile that uses the Pinkie for specific functions... as opposed to Pinkie = shift).
This profile was necessary for two things (otherwise you could just not bother with a Saitek profile, and just use native bindings from within Renegades / Legends);
(a) MAX JUMP (the main thing requiring a profile)
(b) REBALANCE WEAPONS / SHIELDS. The Precision Slider was banded for this... and a little flaky, so the middle 20%-80% band is defined to "do nothing" and the "[" and "]" keys use only 20% on the edges.
I also set the two joystick hats to 4-way as opposed to 8-way, and the throttle hat to 8-way.
[Edited on 2-8-2009 by Storm]
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Storm
- Lieutenant
- Posts: 218
- Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:54 pm
joy
If anyone is interested, I re-did those printer templates / visual aids for the X52 Pro. Here is the link:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/34159828@N06/
I made cleaner, neater versions of them, and this time uploaded as BMPs (versus JPGs) so there is no artifacting.
(... and I've revised my Saitek profile for like the 5th time now. I think this one will stick).
If you are unfamiliar with Flickr; click on an image. On the next page click "+ All Sizes". You should then see the full resolution at 800x600. Then you should probably "Download the Large size" (versus just saving the picture to your HD from the page)... to avoid artifacting.
[Edited on 2-13-2009 by Storm]
Urmm.. I just checked, Flickr stores the image as a JPG (makes sense) but these uploads are "cleaner" than the first ones I did.
[Edited on 2-13-2009 by Storm]
http://www.flickr.com/photos/34159828@N06/
I made cleaner, neater versions of them, and this time uploaded as BMPs (versus JPGs) so there is no artifacting.
(... and I've revised my Saitek profile for like the 5th time now. I think this one will stick).
If you are unfamiliar with Flickr; click on an image. On the next page click "+ All Sizes". You should then see the full resolution at 800x600. Then you should probably "Download the Large size" (versus just saving the picture to your HD from the page)... to avoid artifacting.
[Edited on 2-13-2009 by Storm]
Urmm.. I just checked, Flickr stores the image as a JPG (makes sense) but these uploads are "cleaner" than the first ones I did.
[Edited on 2-13-2009 by Storm]
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Storm
- Lieutenant
- Posts: 218
- Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:54 pm
joy
I just ran into a little problem with the last version of the Saitek profile that I did... but fixed it.
Some people have indicated that they do not use the SST all that much, or really understand it clearly. If what just happened to me happened to someone else, it might trigger a kind of "panic mode".
This little bit of information might help others.
This has to do with "latching"; and how to get control of it, when something is latched, and how the buttons (basically digital by nature) and the analog controls (analog, but can emulate digital commands) differ sometimes; and how a button or function bound within the game can differ a bit as opposed to bound with the Saitek Profiler.
For my X52 Pro, I changed my setup (again)... I programmed the Precision Slider on the throttle to toggle Inertial Mode when pressed all the way forward ("SPACE").... to do nothing when it was in the middle range... and to match target speed ("m") when pressed all the way back.
Initially the three bands were set to 10%, 80%, 10%; IE the two extremes only took 10% of the range and the middle 80% "did nothing".
I still ran into a weird problem... it was "very freaky" when it happened. I attempted to exit Evochron Legends, then all of the sudden many instances of EL started themselves... the Windows Taskbar was full of "Evochron Legends" instances", and I saw one instance of "Dark Basic" in the taskbar. My system started a series of error beeps. It DID look like a keyboard buffer overrun... I moved the Precision Slider a bit, and eventually I managed to close all of those running instances of tasks.
I opened Notepad, and watched what happened when I played with the Precision Slider. It had a tendancy to activate and repeat characters a little too easily; It "jammed my system up". The Precision Slider was acting like a latched control, repeating "SPACE" or "m" if I didn't remember to slide it to the middle range... or if the slider was just acting "touchy"; even if the extreme edges of the bands were narrow.
My impression is that buttons and analog axis that are defined / bound within the game usually act a bit different then when bound within a Saitek profile in regards to latching (repeat behaviour).
So I reviewed the help file for the Saitek SST. Scrutinized "Advanced Commands".
I cleared the two extreme bands of command characters, then deleted all "unused commands" (to clear the old definitions "Toggle Inertial" and "Match Speed"). At this point then the bands are still there, but the three bands "Do Nothing". Then clicked the outer two bands, selecting "New Advanced Command".
An Advanced Command defines what is done when the control is (a) first activated ("PRESS") (b) held down ("REPEAT") and (c) released. And you can control the timings if necessary.
All I needed to do was to specify that those outer bands activate the character ("SPACE" or "m") when pressed, but I * LEFT BLANK * the "REPEAT" and "RELEASE" areas (they "do nothing"). (AND I've changed the band ranges again... to 5%, 90%, 5%).
Now the profile is behaving, and working nicely.
Some people have indicated that they do not use the SST all that much, or really understand it clearly. If what just happened to me happened to someone else, it might trigger a kind of "panic mode".
This little bit of information might help others.
This has to do with "latching"; and how to get control of it, when something is latched, and how the buttons (basically digital by nature) and the analog controls (analog, but can emulate digital commands) differ sometimes; and how a button or function bound within the game can differ a bit as opposed to bound with the Saitek Profiler.
For my X52 Pro, I changed my setup (again)... I programmed the Precision Slider on the throttle to toggle Inertial Mode when pressed all the way forward ("SPACE").... to do nothing when it was in the middle range... and to match target speed ("m") when pressed all the way back.
Initially the three bands were set to 10%, 80%, 10%; IE the two extremes only took 10% of the range and the middle 80% "did nothing".
I still ran into a weird problem... it was "very freaky" when it happened. I attempted to exit Evochron Legends, then all of the sudden many instances of EL started themselves... the Windows Taskbar was full of "Evochron Legends" instances", and I saw one instance of "Dark Basic" in the taskbar. My system started a series of error beeps. It DID look like a keyboard buffer overrun... I moved the Precision Slider a bit, and eventually I managed to close all of those running instances of tasks.
I opened Notepad, and watched what happened when I played with the Precision Slider. It had a tendancy to activate and repeat characters a little too easily; It "jammed my system up". The Precision Slider was acting like a latched control, repeating "SPACE" or "m" if I didn't remember to slide it to the middle range... or if the slider was just acting "touchy"; even if the extreme edges of the bands were narrow.
My impression is that buttons and analog axis that are defined / bound within the game usually act a bit different then when bound within a Saitek profile in regards to latching (repeat behaviour).
So I reviewed the help file for the Saitek SST. Scrutinized "Advanced Commands".
I cleared the two extreme bands of command characters, then deleted all "unused commands" (to clear the old definitions "Toggle Inertial" and "Match Speed"). At this point then the bands are still there, but the three bands "Do Nothing". Then clicked the outer two bands, selecting "New Advanced Command".
An Advanced Command defines what is done when the control is (a) first activated ("PRESS") (b) held down ("REPEAT") and (c) released. And you can control the timings if necessary.
All I needed to do was to specify that those outer bands activate the character ("SPACE" or "m") when pressed, but I * LEFT BLANK * the "REPEAT" and "RELEASE" areas (they "do nothing"). (AND I've changed the band ranges again... to 5%, 90%, 5%).
Now the profile is behaving, and working nicely.
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Maarschalk
- Captain
- Posts: 7645
- Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:24 am
- Location: USA, Also check your six!
joy
Yep, I like my X52. Even thou it acts up once in a while with drifting.
Arvoch Alliance Stat:
Evochron Legends Stats:
Evochron Mercenary Stats:
Darkness is the absence of Light as Evil is the absence of Good
Evochron Legends Stats:
Evochron Mercenary Stats:
Darkness is the absence of Light as Evil is the absence of Good
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Dengar
- Lieutenant
- Posts: 293
- Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2008 9:30 pm
joy
All singing all dancing X52. Some will say I use it as a paperweight!!!
I still use the k/b for the obvious chatting, but I still can't fight and type at the same time. Again some will say I can't fight anyway!!
Yes Mr MuchTalk I am talking to you!!!
I still use the k/b for the obvious chatting, but I still can't fight and type at the same time. Again some will say I can't fight anyway!!
Yes Mr MuchTalk I am talking to you!!!
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festa_freak
- Ensign
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2010 8:41 pm
joy
Saitek Cyborg Evo.
I had a X-52 but I sold it because it had soo much more than I needed. I said to myself that I would never need to use the keyboard in a game again, which was true, but I would have to learn all the commands on the joystick and WHEW, I didn't feel like doing that!
I had a X-52 but I sold it because it had soo much more than I needed. I said to myself that I would never need to use the keyboard in a game again, which was true, but I would have to learn all the commands on the joystick and WHEW, I didn't feel like doing that!
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chilong
- Lieutenant Jr. Grade
- Posts: 68
- Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:46 am
- Location: L.I., NY
joy
HI,
I've been immersed in a few projects and have not played for a while but gonna get back in it! (and eventually oonline, I hope...)
I was using a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro for the longest time and really liked using it but it needed to be replaced (just worn out a bit) and had planned to get another. At the last minute, however, I went with a Thrustmaster T.16000M.........Awesome!...I love it.
I've been immersed in a few projects and have not played for a while but gonna get back in it! (and eventually oonline, I hope...)
I was using a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro for the longest time and really liked using it but it needed to be replaced (just worn out a bit) and had planned to get another. At the last minute, however, I went with a Thrustmaster T.16000M.........Awesome!...I love it.