Marvin's Proper Etiquette for Requesting a Game Change

Stilton · Post by **Stilton** » Fri May 13, 2011 3:03 pm

There aren't propellers on a spacecraft.. and this is a computergame, ive never sat in a gulfstream either.. but im pretty sure it cant reverse midflight or shoot lasers.. So comparing this to real life is a bit silly.
Propellers/wings were to give examples of other games already enabling this option..

What was your point btw - because you certainly failed to understand and/or counter mine.

- My point here being, that because of the extra manuevers you can pull off in EM, it'd be nice to see your wings so you can guage clearance when docking up (not that you really have to, but itd be a nice visual feature..)
-- Also it, like TrackIR, would add to the IMMERSION.. and not having wings but knowing my spaceship does and i -should- be able to see them from this angle. Breaks that immersion for me.

I wouldnt want this game to end up being huge but as ive already stated -
-- You dont need any extra art assets or space to enable something that's already in the game.

What i dont understand is Why are you [and others] trying to turn this topic where all im asking for is the option for an extra feature.. into reasons why its not realistic and therefore shouldnt be in the game?

If you dont like the option, you dont have to enable it.. Im not asking it be forced upon you..

I just realised im probably coming across as a bit militant because my ideas are being threatened.....it worries me when i have an idea, i try to share it.. and then people come along and try and 'shut me down' for what i can see is no reason at all.
However after re-reading your post i realised you're infact saying exactly what i hoped for, you just want it optional. which is great.

So ill shut up and now and go back to my cave, good day sirs

[Edited on 5-13-2011 by Stilton]

[Edited on 5-13-2011 by Stilton]

Post by **Marvin** » Fri May 13, 2011 4:19 pm

From post: 107114, Topic: tid=7392, author=Stilton wrote:What i dont understand is Why are you [and others] trying to turn this topic where all im asking for is the option for an extra feature..

That's not the point. Suggestions are great. Assuming Vice can completely rewrite a couple algorithms in a day or two, because the assets are already in the game, is not. Granted, Vice can work wonders but the point, "if it's so easy, why not do it yourself," is a valid one. By stating that it's easy, you peg yourself as someone who can do it him/herself.

49rTbird · Post by **49rTbird** » Fri May 13, 2011 4:25 pm

Easy pilots! we all know that ideas are welcome and all pilots may not like some ideas. Having said that we all like to put our thoughts about ideas out there so lets please do it as calmly as possible. Thanks in advance to all.

Disclaimer: No harm intended to any pilot!;)

[Edited on 5-13-2011 by thetiebers]

xingbing1 · Post by **xingbing1** » Fri May 13, 2011 5:38 pm

Actually, it's exactly this reason I play in 3rd person view all the time. I don't like not being able to see around my spacecraft. Stilton's idea has merit, being able to see a bit more around the edges would be nice.

Akrion Xxarr · Post by **Akrion Xxarr** » Fri May 13, 2011 10:10 pm

From post: 107110, Topic: tid=7392, author=Eclipse wrote:It's not a terrible idea, but may not work well for all players.
Vice has gone with the option to give players as high a frame rate as possible, which is why the stock game doesn't render outside parts of the ship you are flying. There are 20 flyable frames to play with, that's a lot models needed, which would also increase the game download size and memory footprint (a major reason there is only one stock cockpit design).

It shouldn't be any more taxing on your framerates than playing the game in 3rd person. Though it would indeed increase the load a bit, I'm just not sure how noticable it would be in light of rendering every other NPC ship model.

The method I suggested uses already existing mechanics and would, for a proof of concept, require nothing more than the addition of code.

Proof of Concept example:
Add another 3rd person camera mode. For this mode make the camera static on the very front of the ship and overlay the cockpit over said camera. You now have a rough representation of the already existing 1st person view, except now the ship is still being rendered behind you because you're simulating 1st person with the 3rd person view mode.

Now add a way for the user to move the camera around on the ship like they would move wings. Except it probably wouldn't have any reason to be scalable/stretchable. This camera will represent the positioning of your new 3rd person mode.

Once you've got that working, put this camera on the front of a cockpit model.

Now you've got a positionable 1st person view that will display the ship around your view with relatively light modification to the code. The user now has the choice to leave the cockpit in the standard position at the front of the ship, or move it around to where they choose. And with this you can technically even have two 1st person views. The one that already works as is, with no player ship rendering, and a new one that is a simulated 1st person using the 3rd person view method.

The above is far from a clean example (how do you handle the 1st person viewing scheme of looking around when you're in the 3rd person camera mode for example), but my point is to show that it can be accomplished with already existing mechanics and relatively little work. (And before anybody tries pointing out this comment of me saying "little work" I must direct your attention to the word "relatively").

I had no intention on starting an argument or anything, so I'm sorry for seemingly sparking such a thing. I just wanted to provide a solution that should be doable with already existing code so long as it's flexible. If I wanted to debate about how programming works, I'd hang around cplusplus.com or some other programming forum. (Guess who doesn't frequent programming forums).

From post: 107116, Topic: tid=7392, author=Marvin wrote:Granted, Vice can work wonders but the point, "if it's so easy, why not do it yourself," is a valid one. By stating that it's easy, you peg yourself as someone who can do it him/herself.

Thought I'd address this as well. Does it mean that just because it's theoretically easy to do, it shouldn't be made a suggestion to be done officially? If we all can just mod everything we need, should Vice just stop developing the game entirely and let the players do the rest? Should we all just storm Vice's house and run off with the source code so that we can all just 'do it ourselves'? (Disclaimer: That last one was a joke.)

I can understand some of Stilton's frustrations just because this happens everywhere. Someone suggests something for the official product that could be doable via mod and they're essentially told to just mod it. This implies that the suggestion should never of been made, that it was wasted effort, just go sit in your corner and be quiet, etc. Whether or not this is the intent, I'm just saying that it can easily be the result if few people discuss the suggestion in the intended light of an official change and the topic is pushed towards just making it a mod.

The point of showing that it could be doable with relative ease is that it shows it shouldn't be a major investment in development time. Otherwise instead of the topic being turned into "Just make it a mod" it could turn into "Too much time away from Vice developing *something else I want*". So ultimately I guess it's a lose/lose situation. x3

[Edited on 5-13-2011 by Akrion Xxarr]

Post by **Marvin** » Sat May 14, 2011 6:07 am

From post: 107130, Topic: tid=7392, author=Akrion Xxarr wrote:(And before anybody tries pointing out this comment of me saying "little work" I must direct your attention to the word "relatively").

Maars might have something to say about that.

Stilton · Post by **Stilton** » Sat May 14, 2011 2:16 pm

Fuuuuuuu.....

Marvin:

"Assuming Vice can completely rewrite a couple algorithms in a day or two, because the assets are already in the game"

Sadly mate the only people making assumptions around here are the naysayers putting words in my mouth.

I didnt say he would do it in a day or two.. or at all, i just asked it be looked into, to see if its feasable.. Because id like to be able to see my wings, the art assets are already ingame so it wont be extra space in terms of gigabytes.. and -hopefully- it shouldnt be too labor intensive.

I may have said it was easy, if so that was a poor choice of words.. Its just im very knowledgable when it comes to 3d modelling, i could make a 3d cockpit sure.. But it still wouldnt auto-update as i move my ship parts about ingame.. and also i dont have access to the source code of the game nor would i readily know how to integrate in my new 'mod' so that it worked seamlessly like that.. Its probably not doable without the source.. More importantly, i already bought the game so Why not ask the dev to implement it..

Hell he might even get me to purchase another copy.
Akrion hit it on the head though, its a bit of an insult when people rush to jump on the 'mod it in yourself bandwagon'

Most of the 'objections' to this idea are ridiculous..

One person says
-- Oh you can do this with modding tools, dont be lazy. (but that doesnt help because it wont get updated as you change your ship config)

the other says
-- But real life planes dont have that (what wings?)

the next says
-- yeh but i dont want the game to end up being 10gig!! (me either, its all ingame already)

and someone else comes in with
-- but you shouldnt expect so much from one developer (im just asking.)

Half this thread is me countering these... pretty strange objections tbh.
I didnt really expect much more though, you go to any forum and you find people posting just for the sake of it.

[Edited on 5-14-2011 by Stilton]

Avenger · Post by **Avenger** » Sat May 14, 2011 2:59 pm

I for one will never model a ship where my wings obstruct my view, I am bothered enough with that when flying IL2 Sturmovik.

So even if it is added, I will move my wings back far enough so I don't see them from inside the cockpit, building a ship like that is creating a tactical dissadvantage that can be prevented with a better ship design for maximum tactical overview during battle.

To be honest I find the current cockpit a slight tactical dissadvantage as it is obstructed more then enough for my taste, but at least we have a cockpit in EM.
If I had my way I would have made a bubble cannopy type ship that gave me 360 degrees view with as little obscuring parts as possible.
I really wish the Freespace series had cockpits, that would have been so awsome.

49rTbird · Post by **49rTbird** » Sat May 14, 2011 3:25 pm

I seem to remember someone making a Bubble (2 seater) cockpit for legends.

warsign · Post by **warsign** » Sat May 14, 2011 3:46 pm

We are kindest forum really. Guys I really admire your patience!

Stilton, you have an idea and you are sharing it. But, I don't have to love/like your ideas, right?

Your ideas are important for developer of the game, you can share any idea you want and believe me he reads your rmessages, everyone's messages.

But, I can say you, I can do exterior parts of the ships already , I dont want to see my wings from inside of the ship, etc etc..

If developers like your idea, easly include it in the game ok? Don't take forum members' messages one by one and don't answer them with bold texts!!!!

And at last and not least, I dont like your idea, it is not necessary. OK?

Sorry for my English, next time I send my message as Turkish ok!!!

SeeJay · Post by **SeeJay** » Sat May 14, 2011 5:23 pm

Hey warsign, don't appologize for your english, it's really good and I understand you perfectly.

As warsign said, it's actually a very friendly forum and we all have a lot of ideas.
All people might not like them, but Vice does read ALL of them and takes it in and use them if applicable.

Keep up the great work all and keep the ideas coming.

Stilton · Post by **Stilton** » Sat May 14, 2011 6:03 pm

Indeed warsign if anyone's apologising it should be me..
I wasnt trying to insult your english its very good.. however even when people of the same language speak about technical things its easy for people to misunderstand what they're trying to say.

So im sorry, i wasnt insulting your english.. if anything the fact you can speak 2 languages and knowledge of 3d modelling for the game shows you have patience and wisdom.

I can't speak turkish so im sorry i cant better convey my ideas.. but i assure you as one-person-to-another who knows about 3d modelling, my ideas arent complicated and ive tried to break it down so even people with no modelling skills understand.

However, im not forcing my ideas on anyone.. Im just asking for the option.. If the dev has time, to look into it...
Some people agree/like with the idea, others dont..
That's fine, but some of the people who don't are argueing against having the CHOICE, for whatever reason.. thats what's wrong in my opinion.

Also people are getting hung up on the idea of the wings obscenely obscuring your visiblity... Even with the best comparison of modern day aircraft with bubble canopies the pilot still can't see underneath his plane.. you still see the sillhouette of your own craft at every angle when you look around...

..This helps you guage clearance to objects, landing.. and for me it would be a major improvement..
But, i think people understand what i mean so i'll stop repeating myself..

But sometimes pictures do better than words.. I went to take a picture of the harrier cockpit and had to eat my own words because.. You cant see the wings lol.. they go back at too sharp an angle..

However, i knew i wasnt crazy.. This is from Arma2, an A10.. hopefully not against any rules to post a link to a pic. Its from the cockpit perspective with my head turned to the left.. When you are facing full forward your wings are behind you and thus don't obscure your view.. but you can see them.
http://www.samildanach.co.uk/Arma2_A10.jpg

When flying that ^ i still know how far my wings extend without having to use some imaginary 'external view' when landing by simply turning my head.. But they're not in my face all the time when im flying.. Still the cockpit on that is ugly but thats not the point

Sorry about bolding too, i didnt know it was against forum rules and i thought i might be making it easier for people who cant be bothered to read my whole posts.. because i tend to go on a bit sometimes.
You all might have noticed.

[Edited on 5-14-2011 by Stilton]

[Edited on 5-14-2011 by Stilton]

SeeJay · Post by **SeeJay** » Sat May 14, 2011 6:46 pm

I do like the ideas you have Stilton, maybe not all aspects of it by I really agree
that the more options there is for all, the more people might start flying the sim.

I also know that Vice do "listen" and takes all in and use it if he can.

He has helped me alot and answers all questions that I have and also solved all tech problems
that I've had. Keep your ideas coming. They are appreciated.

Great work.

Post by **Marvin** » Sat May 14, 2011 8:22 pm

From post: 107165, Topic: tid=7392, author=Stilton wrote:... hopefully not against any rules to post a link to a pic.

Usually, it's better to post the pic ... but, considereing how wide that one is, the link is good enough.

Akrion Xxarr · Post by **Akrion Xxarr** » Sat May 14, 2011 10:53 pm

My suggestion was under the impression that this game was largely about giving the players the freedom of choice. I personally don't see why anybody would take issue with having 2 first person view modes (one as it currently is, and one as Stilton suggests).

Players that want to see their ship will have to change their first person view mode / toggle an option / set their ship up accordingly.
Players that don't want to see their ship will have to do nothing.

I don't see how it could be anything but a win/win situation.

This forum does seem to be rather nice when compared to how many forums can be, I can't argue with that. But I still feel a bit in the way somewhat condescending attitudes towards new members, at least from my perspective. But that could just be perhaps because it can be a pet peeve of mine when people make direct responses to my posts with nothing more than a comment that suggests I have no idea what I'm talking about, and proceed to add nothing else to the conversation. Almost like I have to prove myself in some way first.

At the very least I can say that, for a space simulator, this is definitely one of the least frustrating forums I've read through. And Vice doesn't appear to be a Derek Smart in any way (otherwise we'd probably all be banned now), so he automatically gains a +10 to Awesome for that. x3

Post by **Marvin** » Sun May 15, 2011 6:21 am

From post: 107172, Topic: tid=7392, author=Akrion Xxarr wrote:I personally don't see why anybody would take issue with having 2 first person view modes (one as it currently is, and one as Stilton suggests).

It's not the "option to chose" that's under question. It's the implication that it would be easy to implement and, at the same time, add nothing that would impact FPS.

Personally, I like suggestions. I make them myself. Lots of players do. And Vice has added quite a few of them to the game ... many of them as options. But, option or not, I've watched my FPS fluctuate with each addition *... whether or not I've checked the box to activate the option. And it doesn't surpise me. 'Cause, when you start adding things, here and there, the end result often looks like something out of Rube Goldberg.

Search back a year or two and you'll see that just about every suggestion has been debated. Especially those that affect game play. And saying that it would be easy to change how the cockpit is rendered, without ever first attempting to create a cockpit mod of your own, is bound to invite criticism.

* Edit: I can live with the reduction in FPS. Especially if the added option is a good one. I just don't like it when somebody tries to pull the Gorf over my eyes by insisting this or that change won't affect my already overworked CPU.

[Edited on 5-15-2011 by Marvin]

Avenger · Post by **Avenger** » Sun May 15, 2011 8:58 am

From post: 107112, Topic: tid=7392, author=Stilton wrote:Also In this video of freespace2 mod, the guy looks over at his big guns... mounted off to the side - they load in place or whatever and he fires and hes all like pew pew pew asplosions.. Which is cool..

I'd like to be able to do that in this game.. See the missiles mounted on my wings fire away... I have the side monitors and the trackIR's.. but no wings.

I agree, the video looks nice and all but if you ask me the cockpit design is horrible from a combat point of view, thick struts with extreme limitation to forward view, if I was a fighter pilot and they told me this is the ship that I will fly from now on I will file an official report on how crappy the cockpit design is and what moron designed it, obviously someone that never flew a combat mission his entire life.
The collapsable cannons are a nice touch though.

As for missiles mounted on wings, at least as far as I seen so far all missiles in EM are mounted in internal compartments, like the YF22 fighter.

xingbing1 · Post by **xingbing1** » Sun May 15, 2011 9:57 am

Yeah, but wouldn't it be cool to see a missile actually *attached* to the wings, and then shoot off when your fire it?

Avenger · Post by **Avenger** » Sun May 15, 2011 10:03 am

Not really no, it's too old fassion, prone to damage and misfires, internal bays is the way forward if you ask me.

Akrion Xxarr · Post by **Akrion Xxarr** » Sun May 15, 2011 10:35 am

From post: 107181, Topic: tid=7392, author=Marvin wrote: And saying that it would be easy to change how the cockpit is rendered, without ever first attempting to create a cockpit mod of your own, is bound to invite criticism.

Where did I say it would be easy? At no point did I say the change would be easy. I said, and I directly quote:
"The concept here is a pretty good one and, I feel, one that shouldn't be too incredibly difficult to implement."

Not being too difficult does not imply that it's easy. Regardless, I doubt Vice would need to pick up new programming techniques or concepts to make a change like this, in which case it wouldn't be very difficult at all, it would just take time. (Something that takes a long time to do does not inherently mean that it's difficult to achieve). How much time that would be only Vice would really know.

From post: 107181, Topic: tid=7392, author=Marvin wrote: * Edit: I can live with the reduction in FPS. Especially if the added option is a good one. I just don't like it when somebody tries to pull the Gorf over my eyes by insisting this or that change won't affect my already overworked CPU.

Again, I did no such thing. I don't like it when people seem to be trying to put words in my mouth. I will again directly quote myself: "It shouldn't be any more taxing on your framerates than playing the game in 3rd person." I didn't insist anything, I simply said that it shouldn't affect FPS any more than being in 3rd person.

I apologize if you were addressing someone else with your statements over what was being said, it's just not very clear with me being the only one you quoted.

[Edited on 5-15-2011 by Akrion Xxarr]

Maarschalk · Post by **Maarschalk** » Sun May 15, 2011 8:42 pm

From post: 107137, Topic: tid=7392, author=Marvin wrote:
From post: 107130, Topic: tid=7392, author=Akrion Xxarr wrote:(And before anybody tries pointing out this comment of me saying "little work" I must direct your attention to the word "relatively").
Maars might have something to say about that.

Yes, relatively related......

:P

Post by **DaveK** » Wed May 18, 2011 9:47 am

wow - I've just found this thread and (for me at least) it is a first!

Someone says they would like to see their wings outside from inside
They say they are happy to have it as a toggle option
They say (apparently from experience) that since we can already see the outside of our ship in 3rd person mode, the graphic info is already coded in in some form or other
Everyone agrees that it can be modded for one frame with one wing position (because that's all that modding allows)
Everyone agrees that it is a different thing to be able to change frame and wing position and have it update in game (which requires access to the source code.)

my initial conclusion: mod it yourself "don't cut the mustard"

then #* boom *# . . . this is the bit I haven't seen in StarWraith thread before . . . a slanging match over people's assumptions about how much work is involved and what Vice is capable of and whether real life is a valid criterion for what is allowed in the game!

pages more of the thread go round in circles of it's easy - no it's not - yes it is . . . (voice from audience . . ."behind you, behind you!")

perhaps the participants are a bit too close to see how the tone of this thread has developed

[Edited on 18-5-2011 by DaveK]

[Edited on 18-5-2011 by DaveK]

Gnou · Post by **Gnou** » Wed May 18, 2011 6:39 pm

To turn back to original subject.... ^^

Coming from Warbird sim and fleeing Jet's one, I love the "old school view" inside Evochron. I bought the Vice's series for his 3d cockpit view at first. So I understand and share fully Stilton's "frustration" (despite my unative english, I recognised my feel in your words).

It would really improve the immersion ingame, even if it may appear as little detail. That's exactly this kind of details that generate the immersiv field.
I think it's very restrictive to consider spaceship as "top-end fully equiped" built. Having the best is rarely the Best.
Such feature would give a more consistent "soul" to our customised ship.
As comparison, flying IL2 series with cockpit disable can involve your flying pleasure (as a bird!), but it deprives you of the warbird's fighting practice and immersion. Dealing with some contraint can be the core of pleasure (for me indeed ^^).

--------------------------

I frequent this forum since a while and was really surprised by the aggressiveness incoming in this thread.
Really happy to see it calm down.

The point about any suggestion is not to be "for or against" but to be able to arg beyond our own mind, isnt it ?

[Edited on 5-18-2011 by Gnou]

Post by **Marvin** » Wed May 18, 2011 7:09 pm

1. Decide on a change youâ€™d like to see in the program.

2. Search through the forum â€¦ as far back and in as many sections as possible to see if a similar change has already been created as a mod.

3. If not, ask at the forum if any such mod already exists.

4. If not, ask if itâ€™s possible to make the change â€¦ without implying (in any way, shape or form) that such a change shouldnâ€™t be too difficult. In fact, itâ€™s only good form to assume it might be difficult and beyond the scope of the game. Say that, instead.

5. Take any suggestions to heart. If the answer is, â€œno, it canâ€™t be done,â€� then take that as a challenge. Study up and attempt to create your own mod.

6. While attempting to create your own mod, ask specific questions about where youâ€™re having problems.

7. If you fail but find that the Dev has managed to implement your change, get down on your knees and thank him, praise him â€¦ and promise never to bother him again.

8. Ignore the last part of step 8 â€¦ the temptation to ask for another change is probably too great.

Akrion Xxarr · Post by **Akrion Xxarr** » Thu May 19, 2011 1:43 am

From post: 107417, Topic: tid=7392, author=DaveK wrote: then #* boom *# . . . this is the bit I haven't seen in StarWraith thread before . . . a slanging match over people's assumptions about how much work is involved and what Vice is capable of and whether real life is a valid criterion for what is allowed in the game!

pages more of the thread go round in circles of it's easy - no it's not - yes it is . . . (voice from audience . . ."behind you, behind you!")

perhaps the participants are a bit too close to see how the tone of this thread has developed

I personally just didn't appreciate the reply I got to my first post. If I knew page 2 would be the end result of my post I wouldn't of posted to begin with.

[Edited on 5-19-2011 by Akrion Xxarr]