[EL 1.01X] X55 does not work properly in Windows 10 *FIXED*

[Vice]

Another programmer put this test together. For those who have the signal issue with the X55, please download and run this test program and post with which axis channels respond for each device and if all of the buttons return a signal:

http://www.starwraith.com/evochronlegacy/joytestX55.zip

[NLS]

Here...

I haven't moved USB slots, still on two ports of the same powered USB3 hub (and I don't plan to move them - at least to change them permanently).
Stick not doing anything, buttons or axis. Throttle all buttons/axis working.

[Vice]

I would expect that the behavior would likely change if the device was outside of a powered USB 3.0 hub, especially considering past issues with the X55 and such setups (ie USB 3.0 ports and hubs) even before Windows 10 came along. But since it works in other programs, I can understand why it would be inconvenient to have to move things around. It's also strange that it works one way and not the other between programs, that's the difficult part that doesn't make sense. I'd like to know how other approaches are getting around such issues.

I'm following up with the other programmer with the results, but it would seem even the most accurate and basic approaches to device and signal detection in Windows isn't even working with that kind of X55 and Windows 10 setup.

[NLS]

Noticed something weird, which AFAIK was not like that before (before 1511 update? don't remember before what)...

As I said both seem to be detected ok by Windows (and work fine in games) BUT...
Depending on which I set first in Devices and Printers/<device>/Game Controllers/Advanced Settings, I can see the test tab of one OR the other.
When I first installed X-55 I remember checking both and they showed up.
So indeed it's not all your fault, something smells bad.
But the fact remains: The others work.

BTW, if you can't find proper support by Mad Catz try to bother them in Facebook, I know they answer there. Someone does, maybe not who you want, but anyway.


[Edited on 27-1-2016 by NLS]

[Vice]

Interesting, that would make sense since that's also exactly how the game sees both devices. And it aligns with what I would expect since the game uses the Windows input structure for device sorting and signals. Still doesn't explain why other software would still work (maybe some kind of completely separate/dedicated custom input system that operates outside of the Windows DI system?). If that's the case, I may need direct assistance from Madcatz to resolve such issues.

[NLS]

I am waiting for your X-55 to arrive almost as eagerly as I waited for mine. (and it was tough here with the capital controls)

[Valkyrient]

I just fixed this on my PC by doing the following:

I went into Device Manager, then opened Human Interface Devices
There are 6 items in there for the X55, 3 for the stick and 3 for the throttle:

Saitek Pro Flight X-55 Rhino Stick
Saitek Pro Flight X-55 Rhino Stick (Bulk)
Saitek Pro Flight X-55 Rhino Stick (HID)
Saitek Pro Flight X-55 Rhino Throttle
Saitek Pro Flight X-55 Rhino Throttle (Bulk)
Saitek Pro Flight X-55 Rhino Throttle (HID)

I uninstalled all of these. I answered No when it asked me to reboot a few times.

Then I clicked 'Scan for hardware changes' - it only detected two of the devices.

I then rebooted my PC and BAM! Both stick and throttle can be tested in joy.cpl. and both work in the game. I hope this helps.

[Jarhead0331]

I just fixed this on my PC by doing the following:

I went into Device Manager, then opened Human Interface Devices
There are 6 items in there for the X55, 3 for the stick and 3 for the throttle:

Saitek Pro Flight X-55 Rhino Stick
Saitek Pro Flight X-55 Rhino Stick (Bulk)
Saitek Pro Flight X-55 Rhino Stick (HID)
Saitek Pro Flight X-55 Rhino Throttle
Saitek Pro Flight X-55 Rhino Throttle (Bulk)
Saitek Pro Flight X-55 Rhino Throttle (HID)

I uninstalled all of these. I answered No when it asked me to reboot a few times.

Then I clicked 'Scan for hardware changes' - it only detected two of the devices.

I then rebooted my PC and BAM! Both stick and throttle can be tested in joy.cpl. and both work in the game. I hope this helps.

This was the ticket for me. Thanks Valkyrient! My HID list only had one entry for each device, but I uninstalled them and then scanned for hardware changes. They reinstalled and when I went into the game, they worked!

Thanks again man...just genius.

[NLS]

I haven't done this because I am not sure it's what we should do.
I am sure there are three of each for a reason.
Have you people tried programming X55 after that?
(i.e. not just using it as is, but use the programming software it comes with to add some macro or something)

Which of the three (for each) returns after the new device scan?

[BangHowdy]

I just fixed this on my PC by doing the following:

I went into Device Manager, then opened Human Interface Devices
There are 6 items in there for the X55, 3 for the stick and 3 for the throttle:

Saitek Pro Flight X-55 Rhino Stick
Saitek Pro Flight X-55 Rhino Stick (Bulk)
Saitek Pro Flight X-55 Rhino Stick (HID)
Saitek Pro Flight X-55 Rhino Throttle
Saitek Pro Flight X-55 Rhino Throttle (Bulk)
Saitek Pro Flight X-55 Rhino Throttle (HID)

I uninstalled all of these. I answered No when it asked me to reboot a few times.

Then I clicked 'Scan for hardware changes' - it only detected two of the devices.

I then rebooted my PC and BAM! Both stick and throttle can be tested in joy.cpl. and both work in the game. I hope this helps.

Well my throttle was greyed out again in joy.cpl so I followed Valkyrient's fix and it works again.

[NLS]

Guys please verify

(a) if the programming utility still works after this and
(b) if the other games still work ok.

[Vice]

So the X55 arrived today and I began the process of installing, testing, and configuring the devices (stick + throttle) across Windows 7 and Windows 10 to evaluate the install procedure and determine if there are any game-side issues that prevent proper device communication. Here are my results so far.

First, I attempted installation on a Windows 7 x64 system that previously had a Saitek X52 installed. I downloaded the latest driver from Madcatz (also verified the driver is the same as the one available on the Saitek UK website) and had it ready when needed, filename X55_Rhino_7_0_41_10_x64_Drivers.exe (the same is provided for Windows 7, 8, and 10). I initially (per their included instructions, step #2) plugged in the stick and throttle first. Windows acknowledge the devices, but would not install a driver for either one (to be expected). With the devices plugged in, I then ran the installer for the driver (per step #3). The driver is apparently unsigned, so an alert pops up suggesting to not install the driver. I clicked install anyway. The driver installation initially began, then stopped part way through to prompt for a secondary interface driver for a Human Interface Device (HID), clicked install again. The process stopped for a third time prompting to install another HID device (probably for the throttle), clicked install again. The setup program then stalled at the image directing to plug in the devices with the 'Next' button grayed out. I let it sit for about 5 minutes with nothing further happening from it. Windows did earlier prompt that the devices were ready to use, so I closed the installer at that point and began testing.

First test was to start joy.cpl. Both devices were listed properly, status displayed as 'OK', and ordered sequentially correctly (stick in ID 1, throttle in ID 2). The preferred device defaulted to the stick in ID 1. In the properties tab, both devices returned correct axis signals, including the throttle's two channel inputs and rotary axis controls. All button controls on the stick signaled correctly, including the H1 and H2 hats which return button signals as well as the POV with returns angular signals. All button controls on the throttle signaled correctly (and quite an array of buttons there is, I especially like the toggle switches, wow!). At this point, the installation appeared fully successful, so I entered the game to continue testing.

Just as with Windows, the game was able to also properly detect both devices on each of their respective Windows assigned ID channels. I entered the control configuration menus and was able to map the various axis channels and buttons to my preferences, stick on ID 1, throttle on ID 2. One thing was pretty certain at this stage of the process, the stick is pretty amazing. It has a heavy weight feel to it and a very high level of precision input.

Next up was testing the devices on a Windows 10 system. The test system was running the latest updates plus the 1511 November update. I repeated the same installation procedure as before. Upon plugging in the devices, the Windows chime sounded to indicate the new devices had been plugged in, but no pop up notifications as there were with Windows 7. Also, the lights did not illuminate on the devices yet as they did on Windows 7 (likely due to the power management of 10). After about 2 minutes, the lights on the throttle turned on, then turned off. No further indications of response yet was provided. I began the driver installation at this point. Same warning prompts, same multi-stage 'Next' process (one device, 2 HID's). The installer stalled again at the plugin image and grayed out 'Next' button. After leaving it for a few minutes, I shut down the installer again. No prompt/alert from Windows 10 that the drivers had been successfully installed as there had been with Windows 7. In fact, no acknowledgement from Windows 10 (no sounds or dialogues/alerts). The lights on the throttle remained off, the lights on the stick appeared to be on and solid.

I started joy.cpl to begin testing in Windows. The lights on the throttle began flickering on and off. The lights on the stick remained on and solid. An alert prompt now appeared on the screen which read:

This program might not have installed correctly

Mad Catz Software x64 Drivers
Mad Catz

If this program didn't install correctly, you can try installing the program using compatibility settings.

Two options were presented:

Install using compatibility settings
This program installed correctly

Considering I was using an unsigned beta driver that may not yet be ready for prime time Windows 10, I selected the option indicating the program installed correctly. The lights on the throttle blinked on and off this entire time. I then accessed the joy.cpl program to begin testing. Both devices were listed in the menu in correct sequential order. 'Advanced' showed that the stick was properly listed as the preferred device. In properties, the stick returned all axis channel signals and buttons correctly. And when testing the stick, the throttle turned off completely and stopped blinking its lights. Activating properties for the throttle turned on its lights consistently and it responded correctly on all axis channels and buttons. Closing the properties menu turned off the throttle and it also stopped blinking after this point. The stick's lights remained on the entire time. At this point, I launched the game to begin testing.

When the game started, the lights on the throttle turned on. Both devices were listed correctly and responded correctly on each of their respective ID channels, including all axis and button signals. So it appeared to be a fully successful install with correct functionality (operating the same as it did in Windows 7).

As an additional test, I swapped USB ports around (the system has 4 compatible ports). Windows 10 properly detected and enumerated the devices again in correct sequential order. The devices continued to function in the game correctly with the stick on ID 1 and the throttle on ID 2.

For still another test, I ran through the same installation procedure on another Windows 10 system. This one was much lower spec than the first, had 3 compatible USB ports, and also had the 1511 update and latest updates applied. It had the same exact results, flickering and all.

So aside from some quirky flickering power on/off behavior during the initial installation process, the X55 generally seemed to function correctly in Windows 10, including across different USB ports.

I then reviewed how the devices were set up in both versions of Windows. Aside from expected differences for port and hub values, the two were identical. What this tells me is that a fresh install will probably work just fine as it did for me, so long as the user plugs the devices into ports that are compatible with the X55's requirements (which does appear to be an important step). What may be happening for those who encounter problems is an improper device enumeration process where during the course of an upgrade or new install, the two are not sequenced correctly in Windows itself, creating either some kind of conflict or missing link in the device's port/ID assignment(s). The symptom of this is that the joy.cpl Windows utility will only provide the test tab in joy.cpl > Properties for one of the devices, perhaps neither of them. Based on what I've read/googled around the net, maybe the 1511 update in November impacted such device listings that had already been installed prior to the update. Obviously, I can't say for sure though, but it would align with the same kinds of things others have reported after the update with their control devices.

Now why it would work in something else other than joy.cpl and this game, I can't say. They may be using some other proprietary input system that is independent of that framework. What does appear to be the case though is that the game is tightly linked to proper functionality in Windows itself (as gauged by joy.cpl). So once it's properly configured and working in Windows, it works in the game as well.

What I plan to do next is explore failure points. I want to see if I can provoke a device input failure on one or both of the devices, then search for why it happened. It could be driver related, but might also be related to how Windows wants to enumerate the devices after a particular update or new hardware install (resulting in possible unnecessary redundant device entries that may conflict or displace). For the moment though, it appears the procedure Valkyrient listed above is exactly what is needed to realign the devices properly in Windows (any version of Windows, even if 10 may have more issues with keeping things aligned/sorted correctly for whatever reason(s)). In short:

- Open the Device Manager
- Open the Human Interface Device tree
- Locate the X55 entries and uninstall them
- Answer no when prompted to reboot
- Right click on the Human Interface Devices heading, select 'Scan for hardware changes'
- Reboot
- Test stick and throttle in joy.cpl to verify proper functionality
- Launch and test the game

I also plan on looking into alternate input systems. The one I'm using is pretty well established and probably considered 'standard'. There is another that might produce different results, even if the devices are not configured correctly within Windows, but I don't yet know if/how it will make a difference. I'll plan on posting here as more information may become available in the coming days/weeks.

So far, the stick is performing very well and I'm impressed by the apparent durability and precision it offers. I think I'll use it for a while in place of the X52 I had been using to see how it works for me in the game. There are so many available switches and buttons, it will probably take me a while to sort out a control configuration I prefer with it. Should be fun testing and setting up though

[jureidinim]

Ok.. my 0.2cents..
I tried the steps Vice mentions - deleting the 6 X55 entries (and check remove software) and doing the Scan for hardware changes.
But when i then run joy.cpl - nothing shows up.

So... frustrated.. i go for the complete cleanup and remove the entries under Programming Suport (Device manager).

Then i reinstalled the drivers and it brings all six entries back under the Human Interface Device tree (expected).

Now at this point, the install drivers application is telling me to restart the machine to continue. Curious - i ignore that and check joy.cpl ... wow!! both stick AND THROTTLE are perfectly registered there.

I go ahead with the restart of machine.. and... after the reboot, the throttle is missing AGAIN from joy.cpl... damn!!

So i do it all over again - and again i do NOT reboot after the driver installation. Both stick and Throttle are there.
I run Evochron and it now sees both stick and throttle.. yay!

EXCEPT.... in doing the axis configuration, although it sees all the dials on the throttle, the configuration screen will not go past checking for the throttle axis. It brings up the option to choose Afterburner and Full throttle... and will go no further. It is asking me to check which axis i want for horizontal strafing, but it will not respond to any mouse click (except turning on and off full Throttle/Afterburner)

So... almost there.. lol .. now i dont want to restart my PC coz i guess i will lose the settings and have to reinstall again.

Really hope you can figure this one out Vice.. :-)
or MadCatz gets their act together and release a proper win10 driver.

[Vice]

I can't really find anything yet in the game that can or should be changed in order to accommodate a mismatched device arrangement. Nor can I find anything Windows 10 can or should change either. It seems to be largely something in the process of initializing the devices, which Windows may have some control over, but I suspect much of it is done by what the driver tells it to do (or not do as the case may be).

I've gone through the step-by-step binding sequence and it's working ok for me. If it's not for you, I may need more details on steps to reproduce it. Turning on/off full throttle and afterburner isn't part of the step-by-step binding process, so it may be something else you are referring to.

As for additional steps to try, lets see if any of these might change the result:

- After unplugging the devices from the USB ports, uninstall the HID entries as before, then with the stick and throttle unplugged, reboot the system. After it has booted up, then plug in the stick first via USB. After the chime, plug in the throttle. Check joy.cpl for any changes. If that works, see if a reboot at that points defaults back to the incorrect device behavior in joy.cpl.

- Are you using any USB 3.0 ports or hubs? Try different USB ports when going through the process above and see if you find the device behaves differently in different port combinations. Some have reported that disabling USB 3.0 in Bios got the X55 to work for them with other games, but that's not a step I would recommend. It should work regardless, if not, it'd likely be a driver issue that needs to be sorted.

- Is the driver you have installed dated 9-3-2015? You said you reinstalled the drivers and it worked, then rebooted and it didn't. Check to see if Windows 10 is rolling back the driver to the older signed driver after the reboot.

[jureidinim]

@Vice,
I will try again and let you know. Just to quickly answer some of your points:
a) stick/throttle is plugged straight to PC
b) Yes - the driver date is 9-3-2015
c) The Afterburner/full throttle are options that came up once i selected the axis to handle my throttle input fro the configuration (check all axes) screen. They come up to the top left of the axis chosen.

I'll try the plug out/reboot /plug back in one at a time method you suggest and will let you know how that goes

[Vice]

Ok, sounds good, thanks. I've done some testing with rebooting myself and so far, my Windows 10 system does fine with rebooting and keeping everything in place with the X55. So a closer look at the USB ports you are using might be one possibility.

[NLS]

First of all congratulations, you got the best HOTAS for the job.

Second (as I read your adventure...).
My Win10 install did not have the same results. IIRC the installer didn't freeze and for sure I never got the LED flickering issue. Both controller LEDs are consistently on.
One issue is that, as I reported above, the "test" properties of the non-preferred device (whichever it is) are empty! Which was NOT the case when I got the controller. As I never had an issue with the HOTAS I haven't visited those properties for weeks, so I don't know when this change happened.

In any case I will try these in turn:
- Move the whole USB hub to a different USB port. It is a powered USB 3.0 hub, but I am not sure on what kind of port I have it plugged (PC is stuck with UPS and server under my side table). This hub hosts the HOTAS, a Microsoft webcam and a Logitech "universal" transceiver (whatever they call it). No actual USB 3.0 devices.
- Do the 6 driver uninstall and try the reboots. If needed.

EDIT:
TL: DR - no go.
I changed the USB port, verified that the original port was USB 3.0 and put the hub (to make the change "stronger") on a PCI USB card I have.
At this point nothing changed.
Then I also did the other thing: Remove 6 devices, remove devices, reboot, plug stick, plug throttle (all again on the same hub). It did install all 6 devices again and weirdly throttle was default first again. Set it to stick.
Nothing changed. Except that EL now detects stick as device 1 and the axis, also detects a device 2 but nothing works for it.
Also still my stick "test" tab works, but throttle is still empty.
If I remove the stick, I can see "test" tab for throttle. If I plug it back, I lose "test" again.
Very weird.
And on top of it, HOTAS still works fine in other games.
ED may have a custom routine to pole the controller(s), but I really doubt X-Plane has such a routine. You see it is written mainly by Apple-oriented people (and the whole interface shows like it), I doubt they did such a thing. They probably just played "by the book".
...

BTW if I were you I would directly ask some other dev.


[Edited on 31-1-2016 by NLS]

[Valkyrient]

Guys please verify

(a) if the programming utility still works after this and
(b) if the other games still work ok.

Sadly, you're right. The H.U.D. software doesn't work anymore after doing it :-/

I had to install the X55_Rhino_7_0_41_10_x64_Drivers.exe file again to get the HID component back, which made the H.U.D. software work again, but subsequently broke Evochron.......

[jureidinim]

Well before i had a chance to test the steps again to see f it would retain the settings after a reboot - my machine crashed - hard lockup. forced me to shutdown and reboot.
But.. the throttle is still recognized in Windows after the reboot... :-)

In game, it has remembered the axes settings i had for both stick and throttle before the crash.
HOWEVER (yes.. it is never always just good.. lol) ... when i click on the buttn to configure the axes, nothing happens.. the screen doesn't change, the configuration doesnt start. I can only exit. The button configuration screen works fine - just not axes configuration - but as i said - it currently remembered what i had set up before.

Guess thats some sort of victory - i can use the throttle now in game.

Side Note: Now if i can only figure out how to get the TrackIr to work - its selected, but in game nothing happens when i use it...
what is the keyboard/mouse way to look around if trackir isnt working?

[Marvin]

I'm not sure (I don't use it) but try F10. It's one of those high-numbered function keys ... and you'll get a "Mouse Look" label at the bottom of the HUD.

[Vice]

Also, make sure to update the game list in the TrackIR software for the latest games. As a new game, Evochron Legacy won't be in older game lists in their software. Once you see it in the game list, it should then work fine.

As for the menu, not sure what is happening to you there. But rather than trying to go through the all axis process, I'd suggest just mapping each individual axis on its own.

As for the X55 signal issues, I'm exploring for options.

[NLS]

Yes please.

BTW all 6 devices returned.

Actually I am not playing the game at all - I can't.




[Edited on 1-2-2016 by NLS]

[jureidinim]

Updated games list - trackIr works perfectly now - thanks!

I'm sure you'll get the X55 sorted out fully soon :-)

[Vice]

Ok, I can't get the X55 to fail on my Windows 10 systems. It just works 100% of the time no matter what I try to get it to fail. The devices always seem to be properly sorted and always work in the game correctly. So I've put together some test programs for those that don't have it working on Windows 10 (either both devices return no signals or only one does). If you'd like to help test this, simply download the zip below and run both programs at the same time. One is for device ID 1 which is where the stick should be, the other is for device ID 2 where the throttle should be. Then please let me know if you see both devices respond properly through each program at the same time.

http://www.starwraith.com/evochronlegacy/X55Test.zip

[NLS]

I'll run these tonight for you.
Also let me know if you want to connect directly to my computer (TeamViewer maybe) to make some tests with me.