What size are our ships?

Post by **DaveK** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:38 pm

I'm researching for a series of short stories I've got planned and really need a bit of help

What I would like to know is what size (in metres or in feet) our ships are (length - breadth and height). I realise that the body design positioning options make an exact size difficult to give, but a rough figure will help me sort out how big smaller cargo vessels (as opposed to Transport Cap ships), planetary shuttles, passenger transports, scout ships and so on need to be in order to be a reasonable scale for the Evoverse.

The other complication is that the interior versus exterior views of the cockpit give in impression of single seater fighters, but there must be space inside for sleeping, eating and relaxing for you plus up to five crew. Watching another ship enter a station shows that they look very very small compared to the station entrance - similar for one entering a jump gate. Fictional ships come in a vast array of sizes!

Serenity from Firefly is 63m long - 40m from side to side (outside of engines) and 18m high
The Millennium Falcon is 35m nose to tail
The original Star Trek Constitution Class Enterprise is 289m long and Jean-Luc's Galaxy Class is 643m long
The City Destroyers in Independence Day have a diameter of 25 kilometers (or 15 miles) and its height from the center up is of just under four kilometers, tapering out to a single kilometer on the brim.

How big do you think that a Ferret/Talon - Starmaster - Chimera (or any others you prefer!) actually is?

Post by **Marvin** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:43 pm

Consider the size of a single cargo bay. And what it can hold: 25 units of metal, an Excalibur pack, a satellite, an escape pod ... a TW (before being deployed).

Post by **DaveK** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:02 pm

Thanks MArvin . . . .its a start but a unit of metal could be a kg or a tonne
An escape pod could be a five person jobby (for the crew as well)
A TW before being deployed is a mind boggler

:D

-splosives- · Post by **-splosives-** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:31 pm

I would say the ships are roughly 30-50 meters long. That's just my guess based on the size of a cockpit compared to the size of an entire frame.
The alliance frames do seem to have bigger "cockpit to frame" ratios than federation frames.

Capt_Caveman · Post by **Capt_Caveman** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:37 pm

I agree,
I would try to extrapolate from cockpit canopy size.

Nigel_Strange · Post by **Nigel_Strange** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:38 am

I would compare them to modern planes. Fighter planes are around 20 meters. Cargo planes can get rather large.

F-22 Raptor is about 18 meters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_M ... -22_Raptor). I would say this is a good size for a small military frame, like a Wraith or a Ferret.

Cargo plane, like a Starmaster or Leviathan, might be between 40 and 50 meters.

In the game, though, the sizes do not appear as varied as the flight characteristics would suggest.

PaulB · Post by **PaulB** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 2:55 am

From post: 168315, Topic: tid=11303, author=Nigel_Strange wrote:I would compare them to modern planes. Fighter planes are around 20 meters. Cargo planes can get rather large.

F-22 Raptor is about 18 meters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_M ... -22_Raptor). I would say this is a good size for a small military frame, like a Wraith or a Ferret.

Cargo plane, like a Starmaster or Leviathan, might be between 40 and 50 meters.

In the game, though, the sizes do not appear as varied as the flight characteristics would suggest.

I think you are mistaken there. I've been noticing that the Navy Destroyer and Battleship, etc are HUGE compared to my Mammoth and Starmaster. I mean Huge.
The Starmaster and below at 3000+ distance you can hardly see them but when a Destroyer or Battleship "jumps" in near a station (3000+ meters away) you can see those suckers as clear as day. I'd say the difference in those ships and the civvie ships it's like comparing a WWII PT boat up to a Balao class Sub to the USS Lexington Aircraft Carrier.
Aside from that I can't speculate on size in meters since there is nothing of know size to compare to in the game.

The Balao is around 350' and the Lexington is 873' (266m). So those would probably be better guides.

I wouldn't use the cockpit as a guide because in my opinion - Vice probably didn't even consider cockpit size vs ship size too much but Cockpit size vs computer screen area.

Paul

Nigel_Strange · Post by **Nigel_Strange** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:00 am

PaulB: I was only referring to playable ships.

Post by **DaveK** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:33 am

Thanks people - it's very helpful to know what others think

I want the crew to have a medium sized ship to be based in (but not a flying shopping mall sized ST Enterprise!) as well as a small scout/shuttle to perform more localised jobs - the latter fitting inside the former without taking up 'too much' space. I was thinking along the lines of the smaller military ships as a scout/shuttle with minimal or even without without live-in space. A modern single or double seater military plane @ around 20m feels about right for size at this stage, though made somewhat wider and shorter since it doesn't need big wings!

I also think of our ships as modular to some extent - there's a certain amount of physical space to fit equipment (assembly points and equipment slots) and there needs to be a trade off - for example if you want lots and lots of fuel you can't have lots and lots of cargo space and a big engine and big wings. You can also rearrange (to some degree) where various ship parts are located. Overall that means that a ship can be small - everything moved inwards towards the centre - or large(ish!) - everything spread out.

Does this sound reasonable? (ie would you be able to suspend your disbelief?)

Anymore views about the larger end (Starmaster and such)?

Post by **Marvin** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 4:13 pm

If you were to put a scout ship inside one of Mercenary's civilian ships, it would probably need to be no larger than the ship this fellow used:

I couldn't find a picture of uncle Martin's ship ... but I can tell you it was awfully small. Just a tiny bit larger than the one used by Alf ... or Mork.

Capt_Caveman · Post by **Capt_Caveman** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 4:46 pm

consider the internal layout of a small buisness jet
or my favorite, the Grumman goose
small cockpit, small passenger cabin,
still plenty of room for crew, passengers and amenities

Post by **Marvin** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 7:31 pm

But, if you added cargo capacity to a Goose, where would it go? When configuring a Talon (for example), you can cram all the additions inside the fuselage. Without anything bulging out the sides. We take the lack of bulges for granted ... but how do you explain it all without resorting to what you'd get when looking it up in the H2GE?

Post by **DaveK** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:35 pm

The main ship isn't what you commonly see flitting around in the Evoverse - it will (have to) be larger than a Starmaster (if I can work out how big our biggest indie ship actually is!

) but much much, much smaller than a transport cap ship. Pilots who fly the class are a very rare breed, specialising in cargo hauling that's too much for the indie merc with the 5 cargo bay limit and too small for the snooty big business transport ships (when was the last time one answered your cheery greetings? - other than with a flak barrage

) - hence you hardly every come across this class in the game (a lot like generation ships in Elite

)

But I need the design and size to be within reasonable bounds of the game canon though. Hence the need to get the size and design right so you will be willing to suspend disbelief!

Post by **Marvin** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 10:11 pm

Well, if you had the modding skills to actually build a replacement, you could probably make it as big as you see fit just by adjusting the scale. But then you'd also need to create a cockpit to match ... something with a much bigger feel. Unless your model ship had (like a Boeing 737) a smallish cockpit compared to the passenger compartment.

Post by **DaveK** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 10:27 pm

From post: 168341, Topic: tid=11303, author=Marvin wrote: Well, if you had the modding skills to actually build a replacement, you could probably make it as big as you see fit just by adjusting the scale. But then you'd also need to create a cockpit to match ... something with a much bigger feel. Unless your model ship had (like a Boeing 737) a smallish cockpit compared to the passenger compartment.

ATM I see it as a pilot plus co-pilot/Navigator in a relatively small cockpit

Science, medical, engineering will be situated elsewhere. Weapons limited to a handful of missiles and a gun turret or possibly two - not a combat orientated ship. To a casual scan it will look like a normal multi-function medium cargo hauler with a crew of a handful, able to go anywhere without causing a ripple

A thought: I've taken screenies of the 'target view'. Are they taken from a fixed distance camera viewpoint or so that the targets appear to be the same size realtive to the camera window I wonder - I must explore that one tomorrow

If only Vice has a table of ship stats! The Rami's original history had stats for all the ships as an appendix - stuff like:

Argus Ferret (MF95-A) - Mercenary Craft - 2265
Statistics: 820C/1640A/FJDP; 86 deg/sec; 22BWR

but no hint of size

However he does mention a 'Freighter' as the 'smaller brother' of the Transporter! However the latter had an enormous capacity of four (yep . . . 4) cargo bays

Still, there is a precedent

Nigel_Strange · Post by **Nigel_Strange** » Sat Mar 29, 2014 6:32 am

I wish the ships had different cockpits.

Post by **DaveK** » Sat Mar 29, 2014 11:19 pm

I've taken target view images of several of the smallest and largest frames as well as a transport. Next step was to measure them nose to tail at the same zoom level and see if there is any pattern

The transport seems to be about 16x the length of a typical merc frame and the frames (using the Talon as the standard ruler) vary from unit length of 1 to around 1.4 for the Starmaster, with frames like the Striker and the Arrow at 1.2. The frame sizes do seem to vary but not by very much. This assumes that the target camera is set to a fixed distance from the target ship. Hmmmmm

Next step is to compare the relative frame sizes to the assembly points and equipment slots and see if the relative changes match.

Post by **DaveK** » Sun Sep 07, 2014 11:40 pm

Sizes Part I - Ships

If anyone is interested I'd like your thoughts on the following . . .

I've taken a number of screenshots of mil cap ships and transports with my Chimera and my Starmaster as close to them as I can. The Chimera and Starmaster are virtually the same size. The Starmaster can carry you plus a crew of four specialists plus a passenger - I've decided that the Starmaster needs to be about 50m long in order to hold five standard auto-cargo bays plus the crew quarters and galley/rest facilities for a crew of five plus a passenger cabin. For comparison with today's aircraft, a Boeing 747 is 70m long and a Galaxy transport is 75m. I don't think that 50m is unreasonable. Using that as the base scale it works out that capital ships are impressively enormous . . .

** transport ships are around 3000m long x 700m wide (1000m wide at the fins) x 500m top to bottom at their tallest.
** cap military ships around 2300m long x 1200 wide x 500m top to bottom at their tallest.

In comparison, SciFi series typical ship lengths are :

** SG1 Daedalus = 580m long; Prometheus = 375m
** ST NG Enterprise = 640m
** Babylon 5 = 8454m
** BSG = 1414m x 555m x 177m with a crew of 2500 - 5000

It certainly explains why cap ships can't use standard jump gates (see Part II) nor dock in a normal station!

Sizes Part II - Gates

Similar screenshots of my ship going through a gate show that a jump gate has a diameter of around 290m. Consequently the old fashioned small cargo hauler ship in my story (stories I hope) can have a maximum width and height or around 180m to 'thread the needle' of a jump gate relatively comfortably. Touching the sides wouldn't be a 'good thing'!

The transport ships in EM are more or less square in cross section, widening out (still squarish) as you move towards the stern. Mil ships are relatively wide in comparison to transports.

Changing the base scale of a Starmaster from 50m long would obviously change all the other ship sizes, but I can't see a Starmaster being much smaller than 50m (crew + equipment needs) nor not much larger than 60m - Firefly is 63m long

If anyone would like the screenshots to check, please U2U me

Post by **Marvin** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 12:02 am

Cargo ships can be long without being wide.

CS-ACI- · Post by **CS-ACI-** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:45 am

Hello,

There is also another option to consider.

Over the past few weeks I have been playing a tweaking many in game settings.

These are mainly key reassignments, hud color and what my ship looks like.

When it comes too what my ship looks like, I have changed both the size and placement of most things to suit me.

This will make my ship unique(ISH) and larger/smaller over all, only the frame can not be resized.

Steve

Post by **DaveK** » Mon Sep 08, 2014 11:57 am

From post: 173026, Topic: tid=11303, author=CS-ACI- wrote:Hello,

There is also another option to consider.

Over the past few weeks I have been playing a tweaking many in game settings.

These are mainly key reassignments, hud color and what my ship looks like.

When it comes too what my ship looks like, I have changed both the size and placement of most things to suit me.

This will make my ship unique(ISH) and larger/smaller over all, only the frame can not be resized.

Steve

Thanks Steve - I've seen some extreme Shipyard 'mods' where wings and engines aren't even attached to the frame!

If you see my screenshots though, the size of the player ships is so very small compared to the cap ships. It's really only apparent if you target a cap ship then use outside view of the target and get your ship as close as possible; 5mm length for my Starmaster vs 300mm for the cap ship. Adding half a mm by moving the wings out doesn't change the scale comparison noticeably

My (partially designed) cargo hauler is about the largest (wxh) that can physically fit through a gate! It's still quite small compared to a cap transport ship but can still carry the same amount of cargo as hundreds of player ships! I'm still working on a feasible believable way of incorporating it into the Evoverse history even though they are soooo rarely seen

Post by **DaveK** » Sun Nov 02, 2014 7:05 pm

An update for anyone interested in how big ships, gates, stations etc are in Evochron:

I used two totally different methods and did a lot of cross checking for consistency

Asteroid caves and a variety of stations to follow!

Edited: to correct the transport image (two images overlapping!)

[Edited on 3-11-2014 by DaveK]

Nigel_Strange · Post by **Nigel_Strange** » Mon Nov 03, 2014 2:25 am

Awesome infographic, DaveK! Thanks!

Busch · Post by **Busch** » Mon Nov 03, 2014 3:24 am

Nice to see the cap ship mod/transport in your comparison pic, Dave!

Excellent work, as always!

Post by **DaveK** » Sun Nov 16, 2014 2:17 pm

I've now completed a couple of size charts.

Chart 1: covers the big stuff - the five station types plus the asteroid caves
Chart 2: has Station type 1 as the link and is basically a revised and tidied up version of the chart above.

Both are now A3 and if you want your own posters -

- they can be downloaded from SeeJay's site or via the direct links here

SizeChart1
SizeChart2

To check the sizes I've used multiple measurement methods

I set a lateral drift at a specific speed and timed how long it took to traverse the object along the axis being measured
I logged px py pz coordinates at various points - useful for mapping
caves! and very large things

To estimate the size of our merc ships I flew my Chim and Starmaster as close as possible to a capital ship in target view and took screenshots of the merc ship in the 'drop basket' for a delivery contract and against easy to measure features of capital ships.

To check how reasonable the answers are, I'd already guesstimated how big a starmaster should be given that it can carry you plus four crew, plus cargo bays etc. Checking against as many sci fi ships as I could find data for I decided on somewhere between 45 -75 metres nose to tail. Checking against the two measuring methods above and using a capital ship as the measuring stick I came out with a Starmaster being 50m nose to tail!

Similary when I measured stations at 5-9 kilometres top to bottom and capital ships about 2km long I checked against other sci 'big' ships and stations - even ignoring Warhammer 40000's 20km flagships and the StarWars' original DeathStar (67km) Eve's biggest ships are around 3.5km, StarWars big Imperial and Republican stuff is 2 - 10+km - Halo carriers and battleships are 2 - 5.5km and a Guild heighliner is 20km; even Dr Who's Dalek Command Saucer is 3.5km!! So I think that Evochron's 2km capital ships are quite modest!!

For those interested, a deployed energy/research station is around 3 to 4 kilometres (3500 metres) in diameter, measured from a screenshot of one build very close to an asteroid cave. If I get time, I'll measure the deplored stuff properly as well.