[EL 1.0408] Some VR/Normal Bugs *FIXED 1.0418/INFO*

Tips, tactics, and general discussion for Evochron Legacy.
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[EL 1.0408] Some VR/Normal Bugs *FIXED 1.0418/INFO*

Post by sabreman »

So, I just got this game and have only managed to play though to the inventory tutorial. As I was messing with the options setting up my hotas setup,
I noticed that you had an OpenVR implementation so I figured I might as well give it a go. The following is a list of buggs and random things I noticed
in my two hours of play
  • The scale is WAAAAAAAAAY off, I feel like a tiny ant-man that's hovering like 20 feet above the seat! Althought I understand why this was done
    (to make the displays and hud actually readable) it still feels rather silly.
  • The current target/nav target is very obviously a 2D sprite that I can see turning to face me when I look at it.
  • The Hud needs at least another "z-level" of separation to make it a little easier to read.
  • The compass looks really weird in VR. Not really sure what's up with it, all I know is it's kinda off.
  • The solid ring on the 3D radar that signifies the "level" orientation for the middle plane (ie: you allign the center disk with the tilted ring and you're level)
    Is drawn as a 2D image on the screen and therefore doesn't work at all in VR.
  • The screens are all visibly rendered like, 2-3 inches away from the actual displays
  • In the "main menu" the "screens" all track with your head.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

This is all I noticed that was explicitelly related to VR, next up general bugs:
  • During the docking tutorial I drifted into the planets ring, and once it teleported me the ring particle field stuck around.
    The same happened during the build tutorial where I traveled to the nebula and had slight nebula background while building.
  • At one point I had to restart one of the hud tutorials and landed on the planet while the voice was talking. When I hit the
    ground I got some sort of popup about sound. I thought the game crashed but I was able to click ok and continue. Didn't think
    to nab a screenshot
  • During the inventory tutorial it told me to click on the "refueling" button while not docked, which I couldn't do. I wanted to
    go to a station but couldn't jump out because I haven't committed my build by saving, and I couldn't save because it was a tutorial.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Finally, I only have one suggestion as of now, and that's for a map mode where I could pan, rotate, and select stuff with the mouse
without having to click a bunch of buttons first.




Anyway, that's pretty much it for me for the time being. My interest is definitely piqued and I'm having fun. Looking forward
to playing this game some more and getting down and dirty with some of the mechanics.
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Re: [EL] Some VR/Normal Bugs

Post by Vice »

Thanks for the info and feedback. It has been difficult to get very much input on VR and find those who have the setups to test with. It would be additionally beneficial to know what VR system you are using as well. I'll go over some of the comments below:
The scale is WAAAAAAAAAY off, I feel like a tiny ant-man that's hovering like 20 feet above the seat! Althought I understand why this was done
(to make the displays and hud actually readable) it still feels rather silly.
This has been reported a bit more with one person using an Oculus Rift CV1, while not as much with Vive units. However, the scaling is generally pretty large overall on any setup for legibility. Some of us older players have a little more of a struggle focusing rapidly at different depths. :-) Also, the VR system is very much adjustable and flexible, the HUD and UI are also scalable and adjustable. So you should be able to tune/tweak the system to something more to your liking. The attached file provides the lines and details needed to make changes (just place it in the install folder where the game's exe is located). If you find a configuration that looks better to you, please forward those details here or to me directly via e-mail (starwraith.com > contact). I'm still waiting for one issue to be sorted out on the Vive side of things before working on it much further, but I can include better scaling/depth defaults as may be indicated by those providing feedback.
The current target/nav target is very obviously a 2D sprite that I can see turning to face me when I look at it.
I'm not quite sure which one you might be referring to here, but none of the HUD/UI elements are sprites, they are all full 3D surfaces (some flat planes, some structures). Some turn to stay with your helmet, some remain in locked 3D space positions. More details info here might help me better understand (a screenshot or two sent via e-mail also might help).
The Hud needs at least another "z-level" of separation to make it a little easier to read.
Which part of the HUD? Or do you mean all of it? Try changing the HUD scaling/distance using the VRUIScale value in the attached config text file and see if you can find a setting that looks better to you. Even if it is just one element that you align the value better with, the others may be adjusted later on for alignment.
The compass looks really weird in VR. Not really sure what's up with it, all I know is it's kinda off.
It's floating fully in 3D, so it may look like it's more of a hologram rather than a flat piece of tape, which is how it's supposed to render as a fully 3D holographic type structure.
The solid ring on the 3D radar that signifies the "level" orientation for the middle plane (ie: you allign the center disk with the tilted ring and you're level)
Is drawn as a 2D image on the screen and therefore doesn't work at all in VR.
I could probably set that up as a separate holographic structure as well. It's current alignment is just for a 1:1 depth distance with the flat part of the hologram (the display portion) and the 'X' at the front for nose alignment.
The screens are all visibly rendered like, 2-3 inches away from the actual displays
As intended, out in front at least, as they are projected holograms that don't rely on screens or glass. 2-3 inches does seem a lot farther than what I see on my Vive though, the distance seems more like about a half inch or less on my setup.
In the "main menu" the "screens" all track with your head.
Only in position, not rotation. And that would be as intended to keep everything centered relative to the seated position mode. IIRC, some didn't like how they could move unlocked/uncentered, so they are now kept centered which may help some with more precise mouse tracking and click ranges (also why the consoles stay with the pilot's helmet visor in game).


On the bugs:
During the docking tutorial I drifted into the planets ring, and once it teleported me the ring particle field stuck around.
The same happened during the build tutorial where I traveled to the nebula and had slight nebula background while building.
Wow, that was quite some drifting. :-) I should have this sorted for the next update.
At one point I had to restart one of the hud tutorials and landed on the planet while the voice was talking. When I hit the
ground I got some sort of popup about sound. I thought the game crashed but I was able to click ok and continue. Didn't think
to nab a screenshot
If it happens again, please forward just the text of the message or a screenshot if you catch it. Some of the game's audio is handled on a separate thread, so it can sometimes recover and continue even if a certain problem occurs.
During the inventory tutorial it told me to click on the "refueling" button while not docked, which I couldn't do. I wanted to
go to a station but couldn't jump out because I haven't committed my build by saving, and I couldn't save because it was a tutorial.
That sounds like stage 101, which comes after stages 98, 99, and 100 where the training mode sets you inside the station you need to be in during the course of that phase of training (it attempts to relocate you at all three stages). If you leave the area, then you'd either have to fly back to the station and re-dock or press enter to skip that stage and just keep going. There could be other ways where you might miss the placement directive, but I'd likely need more info on what the conditions were at the time (if the Pearl station was actually present for example) and what actions you may have done before stage 101.
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Re: [EL] Some VR/Normal Bugs

Post by sabreman »

To clarify, I'm using a vive.

I'll def play with your config file to see if it improves the scaling and such. Where do I stick it though, the game directory or save directory?

I'm not quite sure which one you might be referring to here, but none of the HUD/UI elements are sprites
I think what's going on here is that all of these elements always face as if they where right infront of you, regardless of where they actually are.
A good example would be if a nav target is 90 degrees to my right, when I turn to face it I can see it change orientation from facing my right to facing me.

Heres a crude ascii drawing:

Code: Select all

o = head, n = nav target, | = line of sight

First:
    |
    o      n
           |

Then as I face it:
      /
     o     n
          /

     o-   -n

Expected functionality is for it to always be facing me:

Code: Select all

    |
    o   -n
     /
    o   -n

    o-  -n
Which part of the HUD? Or do you mean all of it?
Again, this might change when i play with the values, but I felt like it looked too flat with the ring, speed values, and crossair + velocity vector all on the same plane.
Maybe move the crosair + vector down a level? This is one of those subjective things I think so I don't really know what to tell you.


Finally as for the tutorial, I'll be honest I dont remember. I did A LOT of stuff during the tutorial that could have broken it, I was honestly surprised it didnt break more (so kudos on that).
I know that the trip to the nebula happened in the middle of the building tutorial and that I blew up a module I made. I also know that during the build tutorial I got
teleported out of the nebula randomly and then back in.


Thought when I started it fresh from that stage everything worked properly, so I'm not to worried about it.
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Re: [EL] Some VR/Normal Bugs

Post by Vice »

Where do I stick it though, the game directory or save directory?
Depends on which version of the game you are using. If you are using the direct download version, then the folder is the same and by default, it's usually c:\sw3dg\EvochronLegacy. If it's the Steam version, the folder is usually c:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Evochron Legacy.
I think what's going on here is that all of these elements always face as if they where right infront of you, regardless of where they actually are.
A good example would be if a nav target is 90 degrees to my right, when I turn to face it I can see it change orientation from facing my right to facing me.
Ok, that sounds like you are describing the target direction indicators, which do stay lined up with the rotation of your head. It's possible that can be done at a static rotation out to the target only, I'll try to set some time aside to experiment with that and see if it'll work. I do recall originally changing this to behave with auto-alignment, but I don't recall why I originally made that change (which was nearly a year ago), so I may also need to go back and review my notes on it.

Edit: after reviewing a bunch of things related to the target direction indicators, I've decided to make the switch to fixed/locked orientations for them. It looks like they were originally set up to align with the pilot's eyes for 1:1 alignment, but the net effect was the rotation you observed (when off-center). I've spent much of today so far updating that part of the rendering system so the indicators will stay in a locked orientation. It was kind of a tricky thing to do (kind going from one rotation method to another and back again to get things lined up), but the end result is looking really good in testing. If you would like advanced access to a test build with this change, just send me a quick reminder e-mail. It may also coincide with other changes to the VR system along with other unrelated planned changes, so a test build might not be ready for a while.
Again, this might change when i play with the values, but I felt like it looked too flat with the ring, speed values, and crossair + velocity vector all on the same plane.
Maybe move the crosair + vector down a level? This is one of those subjective things I think so I don't really know what to tell you.
True, it is a simulated HUD gunsight, which would be a flat projection. But the pitch ladder and some of the other elements are given unique depths so everything isn't completely flat. Shifting things around with the config file might set things in a position that looks better overall.
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Re: [EL] Some VR/Normal Bugs

Post by sabreman »

Yeah, playing with the eye separation definitely helped a lot, thanks!
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Re: [EL] Some VR/Normal Bugs

Post by Vice »

Good to know, thanks for the follow up. What value did you settle on as the best setting to you?

On a related note, I've also updated the horizon plane grid on the radar to render in full 3D as well as the plane for the target orientation display. So those should also look better in the next update.
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Re: [EL] Some VR/Normal Bugs

Post by Delta99 »

Vice, I just grabbed an Oculus so will play some EL when I can and give some feedback if I have anything relevant. I can always mess with a test version too if you want to provide me with a link.
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Re: [EL] Some VR/Normal Bugs

Post by Vice »

Sounds good, please send that info to me via e-mail. I'm particularly interested in collecting data on what eye distance values players prefer in the vrsetup.txt file.
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Re: [EL] Some VR/Normal Bugs

Post by Delta99 »

Vice, I'm using an Oculus CV1 (if I understand correctly this is the first consumer version).

I'm not sure what parameters to adjust for overall scaling of graphical elements. The HUD elements seem alright to me. However I feel like everything is something like 4 times larger than it should be. The joystick and chair for instance seem 4x larger at least to what they should be.

Which parameters should I try adjusting to compensate? It seems to me that most of the adjustments are for UI HUD elements. As for resolution maybe that is what I should be adjusting.
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Re: [EL] Some VR/Normal Bugs

Post by Vice »

You can adjust the HUD/UI elements independently, if desired. So if you get the depth the way you like, you can then offset the HUD and UI as preferred.

The main value you'll likely want to test with is the 'EyeDistanc' value, which controls the feeling of depth distance. It's set to 1.0 by default, which uses the standard separation factor. To bring things in closer, increase the value. To make things farther away and more 'flat', uses lower values. If you have younger eyes than myself and others who have tested the system, you'll probably have no trouble focusing at the wider range of distances with higher values.
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Re: [EL] Some VR/Normal Bugs

Post by sabreman »

Ok so, to follow up now that i've had some more time to play. I set my eye separation to 4.0/5.0, which seems to have have scaled everything right , HOWEVER, I now have new problems.

I noticed that when I move my head, my virtual head doesn't actually move in the cockpit, the cockpit is like "stuck" to my head and moves with it.
The rotation of the cockpit also seems to be a little delayed/laggy which is disorienting.
Tying into the first issue, my camera is by default floating (in what I presume to be) the center of the cockpit, instead of where the head should be.
Finally, seeing the HUD render through the cockpit geometry, even though it's very clearly "past it" is kinda funky.

Honestly if the first issue was fixed I'd be super happy to play this in VR, but that + the second one right now really mess with my head. EL Is gonna have to stay a 2D game for a bit
not that im upset, I understand that these features are experimental.

My trackIR will suffice for now!
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Re: [EL] Some VR/Normal Bugs

Post by Vice »

Some of that maybe remedied with different settings. For example, you'll need to adjust the head movement factor if you change the eye distance factor. Otherwise, rotating the head may appear more static or exaggerated, depending on how offset the two values are. If you change the EyeDistanc value to something like 4.0. you might want to try a HeadMScale value of 4.0 also, then dial it down a bit if the movement isn't quite right to you.

For HUD distance, you can scale it down even though it is projected as though farther out by default. Just keep in mind that if you do that, focusing between a HUD target indicator, the gunsight, and an actual ship out in the distance may be more difficult for your eyes to adjust to quickly. But some players may have no problems with it. The system will allow you to really bring the HUD elements and UI in close if you want to.

Rotational performance can be directly tied to rendering performance. So if there is a slight delay, hold the ~ key and observe the top left number. If it's 45, your system may have trouble maintaining the 90 Hz minimum required, which can cause a delay in response. If you have a powerful system for VR, you can generally adjust detail settings to bring the framerate up to 90. Turning off/down shadows and other detail settings can help improve performance. But the game does generally need a very powerful system configuration to run well in VR.

It is all indeed experimental, an effort to gauge how viable such an option may or may not be going forward. If performance margins and the required layout/formatting just isn't a good fit, then it may not be practical to implement an officially supported option for it. But if it's more a matter of just tuning/tweaking to get things working the way most players enjoy, then it'll be worth working on further.
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Re: [EL] Some VR/Normal Bugs

Post by Delta99 »

I've had a little time to play as well and setting the EyeDistance to 4 and HeadMScale to 4 seems to work pretty well.

I don't think I have the "cockpit stuck to my head" issue that Sabreman is having if I understand what he is describing properly.

I'm also not getting the rotation delayed / laggy I don't think or I'm used to it and it doesn't bother me too much. My system is sort of min spec for Oculus.

The panel UI elements are fine but I need to make some adjustments to the aiming reticle HUD. Seems it is a bit out of place. Although more testing still required.
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Re: [EL] Some VR/Normal Bugs

Post by Vice »

Thank you for sharing your results, that is encouraging. There is a value that can be changed which locks the players perspective to center, that may have been something Sabreman enabled as I don't have other reports of the same thing, outside of not calibrating/adjusting the HeadMScale value.

How do your eyes adjust to the wider range of focusing distance from the target indicators to objects out in space, including the ships those target indicators are over? Can your eyes adjust/focus quickly between the difference depth distances?

Performance can be mixed, both in this game and in others I monitor/keep track of comments on. For some, even a low/mid spec system seems to work fine for them, often after changing detail settings to get performance where they want. For others, only a high spec system provides the rotation response performance they want. I use a decent gaming setup, although not top end, and it's enough for me even when the frame rate steps down a bit under certain scene conditions. I actually prefer to keep details at maximum and contend with the potential for a step down in framerate to 45 from 90 as I seem to be able to handle it fine and the added details are a plus. For others though, they need/want the 90 FPS consistently and so either a high end setup is needed or details need to be changed. For some, it may not be feasible on their less than top end setup.

You can bring in the aiming reticule (gunsight) with the VRUIScale value. I think one person reported using something in the 0.1 to 0.25 range to look good to them relative to the wider eye distance and head movement values they used. In fact, please try maybe 3.8 for eye distance, 3.8 for head movement, and 0.25 for UI scale and let me know what you think of those values. I'm pondering changing the default values to something in those ranges based on overall feedback.
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Re: [EL] Some VR/Normal Bugs

Post by Delta99 »

Ok, I didn't have enough time to test fully but wanted to reply sooner rather than later.

I did not like the switch to 3.8 Eye Distance and 0.25 UI Scale. Seems like HUD and panels were too much in my face although they don't look that different. Or maybe it is something else that just doesn't feel right. I also couldn't focus on the targeting reticules when I had a ship targeted. Or I could focus on them but it was messing up my focus trying to look at the ships. I tried reseting the UI Scale back to 0 (default) and that was a little better. But I still want to play around a bit with maybe putting the Eye Distance back towards 4-5 range and then UI Scale maybe around 0.1 or something. Just ran out of time.

Also, the panels that come up after you select your pilot / profile with the launch button on them float all over the place. I don't think that is intended but it might be. Its not a big deal as you don't stick around on these panels for too long but just wanted to report that.
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Re: [EL] Some VR/Normal Bugs

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Yes, my eyes have trouble focusing when the UI is scaled down to a shorter range, but others have reported a preference for that and claim they can focus through it as they would a real aircraft and its HUD. So I'm curious to hear what others have to say about the option.

Another value set I've considered is 3.0 for EyeDistanc and 3.0 for HeadMScale, then adjust the UI as desired (some say 0.5 looks good). That tends to provide a good balance in depth and legibility.

Yes, the panels in the main menu will exaggerate their movement behavior a lot based on changes to these values. I'm changing that behavior in the next update to stay centered to the player's helmet position and not bounce around so much when head movement/depth is changed. In fact, you can change this now if you like with the current build. Just change the MainMenuFt line to a 0 instead of a 1.
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Re: [EL] Some VR/Normal Bugs

Post by Delta99 »

I wonder if they are actually looking at the right thing? I'm talking the green reticules on the targeted ships. There is definitely something off there. Any other huds that I've used do not operate like this no matter how close you sit or move to them.

Is there a way to change these values without exiting the game? I would definitely play around much more and be able to tell the differences much easier if I didn't have to exit the game completely.
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Re: [EL] Some VR/Normal Bugs

Post by Vice »

Unfortunately, they must be set and established before the game is launched as it determines a huge set of object/mesh creation and scaling.

There is a rotation issue with target direction indicators that is being changed for the next update. But in terms of depth, that is dependent on the scaling factor, which some think a value of 0.5 looks better to them and is easier for their eyes to focus on and through. That will also push the gunsight/HUD, and consoles out a bit farther also.
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Re: [EL] Some VR/Normal Bugs

Post by Delta99 »

Vice wrote:Yes, my eyes have trouble focusing when the UI is scaled down to a shorter range, but others have reported a preference for that and claim they can focus through it as they would a real aircraft and its HUD. So I'm curious to hear what others have to say about the option.

Another value set I've considered is 3.0 for EyeDistanc and 3.0 for HeadMScale, then adjust the UI as desired (some say 0.5 looks good). That tends to provide a good balance in depth and legibility.

Yes, the panels in the main menu will exaggerate their movement behavior a lot based on changes to these values. I'm changing that behavior in the next update to stay centered to the player's helmet position and not bounce around so much when head movement/depth is changed. In fact, you can change this now if you like with the current build. Just change the MainMenuFt line to a 0 instead of a 1.
Quick test. I did not like the 3.0 for EyeDistance and HeadMScale. Things in the cockpit seemed too big. 4.0 seems much better for both to me.

I didn't mind the 0.5 for the VRUIScale. I could focus on things without issues.

Also, MainMenuFT set to 0 fixes that issue as well.
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Re: [EL] Some VR/Normal Bugs

Post by Vice »

Good to know, thanks for the feedback. I'll work on setting up new default parameters taking into account your results and preferences also.
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