Hold onto your pants.

matchbox2022 · Post by **matchbox2022** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:15 am

So.
I have a crazy idea, that may not even need much if any help from Vice.

But it would need the help of the community.

ED has an interesting...wanna be freespace / xwing mode called close quarters combat.
And to be blunt. It is quite a fun thing...though lacking the things that make EL combat fun as well.

EL has some great combat too. But it's mostly open space against NPCs, and engagements anywhere else are rare, especially with human players.
There may / will be some human players very interested in this eventually.

It would add a lot more fun if we could have an "arena" which makes things MUCH more touchy as to where you should fly..NPCs might not be able to use it, but humans certainly could.

Well guess what.

We have the option of building things, almost anywhere in space.

So I propose, we either get a server running or use a specific server, and everyone who would like can help "build" a combat qualification course....exclusive for PvP.

People could enter from one of 4 sides, meet in the middle, and be required to go through tunnels out of areas once inside, limiting escapes greatly.

Those tunnels can open into various areas, but I think the best would be to have it as part of an asteroid cave and/or open up a bit into an asteroid field...preferably in a nebula.
Just an idea for location, but just like Eureka on darkstar, it can be a "place to visit", and be a fortress of bloody combat. Auto-saving there could easily give players a sense of a lobby for instant action, with no rules except for battling inside the course (and likely as only one faction).

The only thing I think would be hard to do would be to make a game mode like capture the flag. How would spawning in a satellite and require to drop it off in one place as part of a "deliver this item to a ship" work out? That contract already exists, and the idea behind it for someone "winning" a simple contract would work fantastic with this idea.

I can imagine players vying for control of the item, blasting others to tractor it aboard, to be the one to "complete the contract" whilst flying in close quarters.

The issue is can a quest like system "spawn" or use one of these missions where the location of the ship to deliver the item NOT be random, as in specifically laid out? And can the item be picked up from a specific location in space as well?

That and being able to add terrain features would be cool...but since it should be in space, would there be issues doing that on a moon surface / close to it?.

I think tunnels and what not could be built almost completely out of horizontals and vertical pieces, and protected by shielding...though some damage will likely happen eventually.

Forces players to be close quarters...forces them into certain precarious situations...like hostile weapon pods or asteroids...and they can't simply...warp out / or afterburn away from a well made cage. Forces pure bloody combat.

Any thoughts or anyone want to arrange a time to make this happen?

I'm personally thinking a system like pearl could work well for this...with a station nearby named quest of combat..of you know....something badass.

Post by **Marvin** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:20 am

EM had "capture the flag" ... hardly ever used. Even though it was kind of cool. In fact, there were two locations ... one inside a nebula and one inside an asteroid cave. I haven't checked, but I think the energy ball and receptacle have gone the way of the dinosaur but there's still the possibility of having FFA inside one of the asteroid caves.

matchbox2022 · Post by **matchbox2022** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:24 am

Mhmmm indeed the cave, that's a good one, but to have it as part of a course, with tunnels connecting the cave to space...and the whole area being quite restrictive for flying at anything above 3000k.

I'm trying to help give this game, basically everything

...and an instant action vs peers thing is smth where I played ED and they did pretty well with this idea.

As far as capture the flag goes, any ideas about spawning in a specific location for a ship "drop off contract"?
OR. Any ideas of how to get that capture the flag system spawned in?
I'd be very interested to know if it's still part of the game or just inaccessible.

Post by **Marvin** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:27 am

IIRC, one of the capture-the-flag setups was in a Sapphire nebula. You might look around ... see if there's a nebula with an asteroid field. The "goal" was among the rocks.

Bodega · Post by **Bodega** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:21 am

Very cool idea. Yeah, I've had an idea for a scavenger hunt. Could be set up via the quest system. And someone else on the discord chat wanted to put together a race. Not sure where he is with that. I've been swamped with work so the scavenger hunt has been slow going. But Matchbox, develop that some more, sounds really cool. Talk to Vice, maybe he can help resurrect some of what Marvin is referring to. CTF sounds really cool, plus the CQB that would result in it.

Needed:
[*] Some sort of arena, whether the bounds are set by a nebula or a cave. We could have one of each. Each would have different play styles. Small corridors in a cave, full of winding tunnels and dead ends where if you're running you may get caught if you take a wrong turn. Or the open, sniper field of a nebula with limited sensors.
[*] Game mechanics, and this may be where we consult Vice. CTF, we'd need a flag and game boundries. CQB we'd need some sort of boundries, though they wouldn't need to be quite as strict as CTF, or would they?

Ideas?

matchbox2022 · Post by **matchbox2022** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:51 am

Races are so easy

It's autogenerated when talking to humans. And they are fun too, I like that little addition.

But race boundaries are transparent, lest there's a way to change that, I need something permanent that can't be flown through. The barriers I was thinking of....is basically a big complex of vertical/horizontal pieces, I would need help physically building on server maybe darkstar...mostly out of vertical and horizontals...it would open up into asteroid fields, and then close back up into tunnels going every which way and looping, with a couple enterances/exits.

Also, there would be a few weapon turret obstacles inside select tunnels / by some asteroids which would fire on all players.

Would be absolute madness.

There'd be a station sitting outside as well for easy saving / buying / spawning / as well as to find the damn place.

I'd be building an arena, basically about 10k in radius (radar range)

As far as CTF goes, that yes would be absolutely lovely. And would simply have the flag / satellite I'm thinking, sitting in the middle of the course (which recall, is surrounded by buildings that you can't...simply escape from...hopefully there wouldn't be enough room to initiate a fulcrum jump..but that would constitute forfeit).

But for now I need help with the basic idea,
if this thing will be built to be used for all players wanting tasty combat. It's something that can "hopefully" be done with this current build of EL, no patching needed. I need to make a mini test course first to see if shielding the cage is a problem, also to see if it's possible to get out of the course (no shortcuts should be allowed). So someone can fire a missile down a tunnel at someone and the only way out would be a sharp turn into an adjacent tunnel / shooting said missile.

I need to "refind" a build constructor, need metal.
But most of all, need manpower and the help of some players, just like what we did on Darkstar with Eureka for people to be physically be building it.

A fight in an asteroid cave is good, but again it isn't quite big enough (I don't think) for the scope of an "arena".
Perhaps we could name it something similar to close quarter combat....I'm thinking....Gladiators.

[Edited on 2-21-2016 by matchbox2022]

[Edited on 2-21-2016 by matchbox2022]

Bodega · Post by **Bodega** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 6:01 am

Yeah, the race idea I think was like start at Pearl 1 and finish in Sierra, however you get there, you get there...like gates, hidden wormholes, kinda cannon ball run type thing. For the scavenger hunt, I'd write up a quest where you have obtain certain items before you can advance, I'd have Vice pre-compile it so no one could peek and have an event at a predetermined time where I start the timer and send people the quest file. Then you have until such and such time to meet me wherever for your prize.

Oblivion Wolf · Post by **Oblivion Wolf** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 7:25 am

I'd be up for this, sounds like a lot of fun to be had. My suggestion would be to build it away from the known systems. That way it doesn't interfere with any power balance and it's in no one's territory. It also becomes an attraction and a thing to do, going out to the "arena" as it's not just something you can gate to. There are a number of nebulae that have asteroid fields in them that may work both as a environment as well as a material supply. It's going to be a ton of work though.

Bodega · Post by **Bodega** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 1:20 pm

Well, I talked to Vice about it and he was very positive. He said that game is already designed to support scenarios like this. Here is his feedback:

The build mechanism is designed to facilitate that kind of arrangement and itâ€™d definitely be worth it if players would set up battle scenarios like that. Have them spaced a sector apart, each side builds a small temporary station to defend and attack the opponents. Could be very fun with at least 4-8 players involved. Each could even be given a roll in the battle, building, support/repair, fighters, etc. Small tunnels or arena type structures could be done also, itâ€™d just take more time to set up.

So let's start really planning it. I've directed Vice to this thread so he can keep an eye on it. We could try to set up a date/time on the forums and see if we can get people to even show up.
I know in ED that CQB you use a different ship, so we'll have to think about consequences and how to negate them for a fun arena type "wargame". I know I wouldn't participate if I'm losing real money each time I lost. So we'll have to make sure we don't have cargo.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, or add, tweak this because It's early in the AM here and I may not be thinking right yet:
[*] As Vice said, we designate 2 sectors as the game area. This should give people enough room to hide, run, hunt and we play a station in each.
[*] Let's determine the maximum set up for the station, like use a maximum of 500 metal, or whatever, and the stations have to built within that limitation. Or do we go with a predetermined design? 2 Turrets, a command module, a power station and a crew station?
[*] Split up some teams and we can add channels on the discord server, her on the forum for discussion tactics before the match. We can then have people join whatever voice server discord, TS3, w/e for live chat during the match
[*] Determine a ruleset - what's the objective, what's legal, what's not allowed? How would we do capture the flag? It'd be cool if we had an item, maybe a cargo container, that contained something that the opposing team must capture, bring back to their base and sell it.

Ideas, thoughts?

Post by **Marvin** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 3:53 pm

We had a road rally in EM (or was it Legends). But, back then, the quest engine worked in MP. For EL, it only works in SP.

Bodega · Post by **Bodega** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:13 pm

oh yeah Marvin, I completely overlooked that the quest engine doesn't work in MP. I'll talk to Vice about it, see what available.

Post by **Marvin** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 7:00 pm

What's available are a number of data drive and buoy "quests" ... one of which IM and friends will be trying to solve in about an hour from now.

Delta99 · Post by **Delta99** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 7:18 pm

Liking this idea but more along the lines of what Vice is suggesting rather than a CQC arena type of thing. That could be fun if done well but it gets boring fast I don't think it suits space that well. Leave it for FPS's. I don't like how it works in Elite Dangerous but that might be because combat there and flight model sucks compared to something like EL.

I'd like to see something more along the lines of what Vice is suggesting so it would be more along the lines of a mission to accomplish. There can think of many different variations / ideas.

Just one for example would be that one team needs to transport "x" amount of supplies from one station to another in a certain amount of time. The other team's goal is to stop them. This would allow for one team to setup some ships as transport ships requiring fighter escorts. All sorts of different rules etc can be expanded around this concept.

And that is just one idea.

It would be cool to see this as a regularly scheduled event where we have some hosts streaming it, something like what Mike One is doing with his Friday Night Fights for Arma3.

matchbox2022 · Post by **matchbox2022** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 9:58 pm

I'll get back to you guys about this.

Little busy atm, likely will chat this evening pacific.

Anyone who wants to help, let's set up a meeting so we can hammer out a bit of a plan and well....start building this thing. Perhaps a test build to start.

Also....can't find my build cnst...anyone got a spare?

Please select what times / dates works best for you here.
http://doodle.com/poll/ke27rtmdxe8es33e

Bodega · Post by **Bodega** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:02 pm

Yeah, apparently we should be able to do most everything within the current framework of the game. And depending on the level of interest would determine how much time we could get Vice to devoting to helping us, which I agree with. If we're the only ones that actually show interest then it doesn't make much sense for him to devote his time to this when he's already very busy improving the main game.

Post by **Marvin** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:34 pm

From post: 185762, Topic: tid=12469, author=Bodega wrote:If we're the only ones that actually show interest then it doesn't make much sense for him to devote his time to this when he's already very busy improving the main game.

FYI, it took a week to script the five road rally routes for EM plus testing each to insure equal time and distance between the five, working out the bugs, and posting them to SeeJay's website (with instructions). Three guys showed up at rally time ... and one of them couldn't get the quest engine to work. Add to that, out of the blue came somebody who decided it was time for an adversary to make himself known ... by attacking the rally's monitor. Despite that, the two guys who did fly had a good time.

Bodega · Post by **Bodega** » Mon Feb 22, 2016 12:03 am

Thanks Marvin, that's kinda what I'm afraid of. I don't mind helping though, regardless of who shows up. I do appreciate also that Vice has bigger fish to fry, especially seeing as what we're thinking about doing doesn't fit within the overall context of the game. Still it'll be fun. I am planning a few quests that will just be waves of murdering bad guys too, but the scavenger hunt one would have to be an event like you mentioned.

I am also excited about working on some sort of defense/offense game we could play. Even if it is on the honor system ( we could have referees) and I don't think it'll be too hard to just get some epople together, set a time limit that a referee can keep track of, and announce to chat every 30 seconds, or maybe if we decide 15 minutes to build, and 1 hour of game time then the ref could announce every ten minutes until only 20 minutes are left, then announce every 5 minutes. The referees on each side can keep track on kill count via the chat window and also we can assign point values to the destruction of the bases. Seeing as getting more metal would be impossible to do (the arena would be far from asteroids) then we could set the limit on metal = 250 * # of ships entered or some other formula. Again, we can discuss the rules, should people be able to rebuild assets that were destroyed? is the final point total cumulative or whatever exists at the end of the battle?

Delta99 · Post by **Delta99** » Mon Feb 22, 2016 12:16 am

I would start with something simple and build from there. Don`t try and build some very complex thing that takes weeks and then have only 2 people show up. Start with a simple concept, test it out with a few or whoever shows up and then keep expanding from there.

3 of us had a good time just battling it out in an Asteroid field for some filming that DeathTech was doing for a combat training video. I don`t know if any of that will actually make the video as that wasn`t the main purpose of his video but that is what we ended up doing after filming the main tutorial parts.

Bodega · Post by **Bodega** » Mon Feb 22, 2016 12:46 am

Agreed Delta, there's actually nothing to build. The only thing I was building is some separate quests for myself and I'll share those via SeeJay's site. That's just something I'm doing because I want to. The scavenger hunt would be pretty simple to organize and build.

For the discussion of having a wargame, there's nothing to do except establish some rules and have someone keep score, or I mean, really the chat window shows kills so we could keep track ourselves. Make a copy of your profile so you don't lose anything you want to keep and we could meet up and go for it. Like you said, just get together, say you've got 15 minutes to build a base, or 10 minutes or whatever, and have at it. Whoever has more assets + (kills - deaths) would win.

As for CTF, we could put some cargo containers in each end, and whomever can capture the container and bring it back to their base wins. The cargo should drop when killed by enemy so that would be "the flag" I guess we'd have to do more 1 flag type football game? have it in the center and have to bring it somewhere. Hmm...I wonder if there's anyway to get the quest system to work in MP, like if we could have Vice add a server flag, the reason I say this is if each team has a quest script to bring a certain item to the quest point, that could be the trigger for the win. Bring a 25 diamond to quest point, and 25 diamond is what's in the cargo container. There is a quest objective for retrieving a specified amount of material. Just spitballin' ideas but next time you guys have a wargame like you did Delta99, hit me up here or on Discord and let me know, I'll play.

Here are some details I just wrote out, let me know if you guys think this would work ASSUMING, a very big assumption, that we could have quests run in MP.

A way to do football or capture the flag could be to have 2 quest objectives, 1 quest script for FDN and 1 for ALC, and then a cargo container or containers as the flags. The containers could have like 25 diamond and the quest objective could be #20 â€“ retrieve # of material. That would be pretty easy to do. Just have to get the material from the container and get it to the quest objectiveâ€¦of course if youâ€™re killed you drop the cargo, which is already in the game. Weâ€™d just have to keep people honest about getting their cargo back, but that â€œshouldnâ€™tâ€� be a problem, especially if we are keeping track of who has the cargo (itâ€™s be pretty easy to tell someone cheated if all of a sudden they win but they shouldnâ€™t have the # of materials).

[Edited on 2-22-2016 by Bodega]

Sinbad · Post by **Sinbad** » Mon Feb 22, 2016 1:41 am

I really like the cargo transport idea. That would work with any number of players... even just one against one! But obviously more fun with more players. I can imagine one member of the team in a tough Leviathon with max armour and shields who is going to transport the goods. The other players in his team are in agile ships kitted out for combat to protect him.

@Bodega Nice idea as a simple quest script so that it gives an alert when one team completes the "contract". In addition I think it would be fun to make up a little fictitious story as a backdrop... for example some besieged Alliance/Federation personnel need urgent supplies and our job is to get the cargo in through enemy lines.

Post by **Marvin** » Mon Feb 22, 2016 1:53 am

You could reconfigure all ships with only one cargo bay. Each player would have a tractor beam. Find or build space stations (cities would be even cooler) as goal posts, each equidistant from a center point (sector). Place the "flag" (a container jettisoned at the center point ... a referee would be required to remain within the central sector else the container would disappear). Have each side start at their goal post. Then yell, "Game's On!"

Players use their tractor beam to pick up the container (flag) and attempt to get it back to their goal post. Opponents would destroy the flag-carrier to pick up the dropped container.

If you want the destroyed player to respawn, have each player save at a designated location prior to starting the game.

matchbox2022 · Post by **matchbox2022** » Mon Feb 22, 2016 2:13 am

From post: 185753, Topic: tid=12469, author=Delta99 wrote:Liking this idea but more along the lines of what Vice is suggesting rather than a CQC arena type of thing. That could be fun if done well but it gets boring fast I don't think it suits space that well. Leave it for FPS's. I don't like how it works in Elite Dangerous but that might be because combat there and flight model sucks compared to something like EL.

I'd like to see something more along the lines of what Vice is suggesting so it would be more along the lines of a mission to accomplish. There can think of many different variations / ideas.

Just one for example would be that one team needs to transport "x" amount of supplies from one station to another in a certain amount of time. The other team's goal is to stop them. This would allow for one team to setup some ships as transport ships requiring fighter escorts. All sorts of different rules etc can be expanded around this concept.

And that is just one idea.

It would be cool to see this as a regularly scheduled event where we have some hosts streaming it, something like what Mike One is doing with his Friday Night Fights for Arma3.

That is exactly why I'd like to try it out.

It's much easier having an arena to go to, where everyone who wants to do that simply knows that's what you go.

I think people hijacked the thread here onto more of a pure capture the flag tug of war between two stations.

That'd be fun sure, but I was really thinking something much more akin to that close quarters mode. Albeit, the modes could very well be intertwined together, and if all it takes is one person putting the flag out there then that's fine "whatever it may be".

Where they'd have to escape the maze, escape into open space, and get to their home station in time...whislt being engaged by hostiles trying to do the same.

This could be done via planets too, but "short range" I really think is best, so keeping the entire CTF on the planet would make that a lot easier than any fulcrum jumps where to be blunt, you could JUMP into the station immediately after grabbing the flag, and you can't find your opponent past 10k anyways. I've done dogfights which quickly lose their appeal once you can no longer "find" anyone.

I wouldn't really be super down therefore personally for multisector CTF in that case, way, way, way too easy to lose out on where the action is, to easily win, and to be relying on your navmap...that's if the server settings let's you even see people, and I'm unsure of the building rules....it's possible I suppose in order to build two separate bases / factions you could build the arena right on the boundary of the sector, sprawling over into the adjacent one.

If we need to do it quest based so be it, I'd need more experience however looking into it to see how to spawn certain flags and conditions....though it really is as easy sometimes as having a "deliver this item to a ship" contract and everyone trying to stop said person....it'd help to be able to keep the location of said ship constant.

[Edited on 2-22-2016 by matchbox2022]

Bodega · Post by **Bodega** » Mon Feb 22, 2016 2:19 am

Hey Matchbox, really sorry, didn't mean to derail your thread. We can take the CTF discussion elsewhere. I did talk to Vice about the quest part and it's really a no-go as far as having quests in MP. Not a big deal though, as Marvin said, we can jettison a cargo container, and either limit play to 1 sector or have a referee stay there so the container doesn't despawn.

Anyways, Delta99 and anyone else interested we can chat about this in Discord...if you need the discord invite it's somewhere here, or U2U me and I'll send it.

Back the Matchbox's idea.

I like it, I believe some of the guys that are active, Sinbad and Delta99 and a few others had a scrimmage the other day, where they met up for some PvP. I think there may already be some good places to play in the game, Marvin could answer, I say away from spoilers and haven't really scratched the surface of exploring. There are some places in this game that are hidden but really cool. I guess older games had quest lines that could lead to them but they're still there, and I guess there are Nav beacons that can hint towards them.

But a large debris field, or cave system would be cool for some scrimmaging. You'd have to keep score manually.

Delta99 · Post by **Delta99** » Mon Feb 22, 2016 2:37 am

I didn't mean to hijack the thread either. I was just giving some of my ideas that I've had over the years.

We can start another thread for CTF or other type of PvP ideas and/or use Discord as well to discuss.

matchbox2022 · Post by **matchbox2022** » Mon Feb 22, 2016 2:51 am

Not mad, just...making a point

I would like to see both ideas implemented in a compromising way...or whatever arena/setup/planet bases/ ruleset we get going on.

The hardest part though is to have it sit between what we (not just me) want to help spread the game out into different ways to play, making it obviously more exciting for new players, and what will be EASY for other/new players to find and deal with. Otherwise it's going to be a very exclusive niche as opposed to another reason to play multiplayer...cause honestly....we're lacking a bit in that area.
And from looking on steam forums, players do want a populated multi experience. Not packed persay...but right now there is simply too much human void going on.