Why can't i crash land into planets?

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HaK
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Re: Why can't i crash land into planets?

Post by HaK »

It also does not matter what the scene is and what direction you look at... viewing a more intense scene like a planet compared to open space has the exact same result. The number is always changing in what seems to be the same amounts from any direction and looking at any kind of scene, so that makes me doubt its a framerate issue. (though i may be 100% wrong)
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Re: Why can't i crash land into planets?

Post by Vice »

Ok, that makes more sense. If the FVL isn't changing and only the AVL, plus the AVL self-corrects quickly when brought back online when the HUD is reactivating after returning from a view angle, then it could be expected behavior.

But if the FVL on the right side of the gunsight is changing in addition to the AVL, then there may be something else going on. And you're right, in that instance, it wouldn't likely be related to anything tied to the framerate, rather it would likely be something control related. The other issue is that the FVL on the cockpit display is directly tied to the value used for the FVL value on the gunsight. So those two should not be different.

I'll try what you describe next...
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Re: Why can't i crash land into planets?

Post by Vice »

Aside from expected occasional small bounces (since it is an estimate gauge), the AVL is generally stable for me and the FVL indicator remains locked on both the gunsight and the cockpit ship status display. If you press and hold the ~ (tilde) key, what kind of framerates are you getting while looking around with F10 active? You can activate mouse look with F10, then look up and left to still observe the framerate (top left number value).
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Re: Why can't i crash land into planets?

Post by HaK »

Update, As i say the leftmost FVL number is correct, and when you going straight both the Left and Right side FVL are identical and so is the AVL. Only once using the view functions does the rightside FVL and AVL change, they are the same number the right FVL and AVL. So i just tested what if i'm going very slowly, so i was travelling at only 168 fvl... and when you do the view's or use F10 the number only dips by around 10... (not the 100-300) So it seems the dip in the FVL and AVL are identical but seem to be greater when the ship is moving faster. (now seems to be anywhere from 10 - 300 change, and corrects itself in less than a second.

Also it does not matter if im running full graphics or lowest graphics... the values are the same when doing the viewing. (regardless of the visible framerate difference from highest to lowest)

Ok i just used tilde, and without using F10.. my three numbers (on lowest graphics are approx) 55, 55, 55. (i guess that may seem low, even though the game looks very very smooth) and when i use F10 and look around only the first number on the left seems to vary, by between 51 - 67 (oddly enough) Game looks very smooth on lowest. Pretty strange that regardless of graphic settings the values have the same changes. (eg highest grahics does not result in a huge drop and increase in the right FVL and AVL number. But seems to increase if you travelling at a fast speed. So perhaps that confirms it is a framerate issue? (even though i feel it runs fantastic lol) :D Game runs great and looks great so this won't in any way change my playing experience.
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Re: Why can't i crash land into planets?

Post by Vice »

Maybe there is something happening with a mouse flight control mode and enabling the mouse look mode. I'll test that next. The right side gunsight FVL should definitely not be moving around at all, especially considering it uses the same variable as the cockpit ship status display FVL indicator.
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Re: Why can't i crash land into planets?

Post by HaK »

Oh hold on. I see that the FVL on the gunsight does match the LEFT SIDE FVL. That number does not change. The two numbers that change are the number directly next to the left side FVL : EG : FVL 169 : 169. (that is the rightside number i was talking about, not the value on the FVL on the gunsight.. so for instance my FVL would do this... FVL : 169 : 169. then i would look around and it would say FVL : 169 : 139. then climb back too FVL 169 : 169. The AVL number at the bottom of the gunsight.. has the same number as the 139* value and changes identically with it.. so if i was FVL : 169 : 169. and looked around it would be say FVL 169 : 139 and the avl would also say 139... until both quickly recorrect to 169. Sorry hope that makes sense.
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Re: Why can't i crash land into planets?

Post by Vice »

Ok, the number to the right of the FVL on the cockpit ship status display is the second AVL indicator. That will vary inline with the gunsight AVL indicator if they ever do deviate. I tested mouse and controller flight modes, both kept FVL locked properly and had minimal, often no variation in AVL. So my guess is that due to a bit of framerate jitter when you look around, the AVL indicator is bouncing a bit when the FPS jumps from around 51-67 or similar levels, then stabilizes when the FPS stabilizes. On my system, there is very little framerate judder/jitter, so the AVL indicator generally stays pretty well locked. The effect can vary, so the higher the velocity, the greater the potential bounce range and chance of a momentary offset value. But the AVL should generally quickly stabilize. Since the AVL indicator is a distance over time measurement, it is susceptible to variations in measured time between frames. The only route it could go to soften such effects is to taper the result even further, but that makes the indicator less responsive and further behind in its indication. So a little twitch is tolerated in the indicator in favor of a more responsive and immediate value.
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Re: Why can't i crash land into planets?

Post by HaK »

Thanks for spending alot of time on this Vice, i do appreciate all the help. Yeah i'm certain you are correct and it is an issue with my side. (possibly my onboard intergrated graphics) It truly is not a bad issue and yes the 2nd FVL and AVL do very very quickly re-correct themselves. So all is good. I did however spot something else... when i cycle through the HUD modes, showing the gunsight then hiding then, then turning off all the screens then all back on. The effect also happens, sometimes with a bizarre reverse, where now, if i have FVL 169 : 169 and i look around AND THEN cycle the hud to only show the round reticle (no details around it) The 2nd FVL and AVL show a different number eg : FVL 169 : 189 and AVL 189 and only re-corrects itself when i use the FULL HUD (showing gunsight details) then it goes back down to 169. Haha quite bizarre and certainly a tiny issue with my hardware / framerate. Really not a problem. Thanks for looking into it. (if it was a bug then it would have been beneficial for any future updates) It surely is a problem on my side. Ie : Integrated intel graphics HD 4000 series. (But the game runs perfect otherwise, luckily nothing game breaking, just a small twich in the numbers which last barely 1 second as it re-corrects itself.
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Re: Why can't i crash land into planets?

Post by HaK »

Oh my apologies, i made that so confusing, hahahaha yes the (2nd fvl) is in fact the AVL... sorry. The AVL which was always stable when i was flying straight in inertial mode is what was fluctuating due to looking around or cycling the hud.
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Re: Why can't i crash land into planets?

Post by Vice »

Switching HUD modes can provoke a framerate bounce up or down (up as the HUD is turned off, down as it is turned back on), so that would likely be similar behavior. One of the reasons integrated graphics aren't supported by the game is due to potential performance and stability implications (ie hardware feature sets, consuming system memory/RAM for use as video memory). Glad it's working well anyway overall for you and a 55 FPS average is pretty good (might have a pretty solid CPU?). It might be possible to provide a customizing option for the AVL indicator to give you control over the level of tapering. So you could dull its responsiveness in favor of less susceptibility to bounce/jitter. You could potentially control both the tapering level and the alignment cap within the equation that is uses via a text file.
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Re: Why can't i crash land into planets?

Post by HaK »

Yes this is most certainly a tiny (nearly non-existant) framerate issue confirmed by me cycling the hud in addition to the changing the views, very very slight luckily. Yes the game runs fantastic honesty. The cpu is a decent four core i7 so im certain the blame lays with the integrated graphics. I will certainly get a proper desktop machine in the near future with a proper 3d card. (lost my monster rig due to a robbery so been relagated to my work laptop) The small AVL value changes do correct themselves very quickly so it really doesn't require any fixing. You really don't need to go out of your way to correct something so minor and really does not change my gaming experience, i do thank you though. You have gone beyond the call of duty helping me out. :D
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Re: Why can't i crash land into planets?

Post by Vice »

I'll be happy to work on a form of customizing equation values for it, even if it may be a minor issue with limited impact for some users. The issue could surface as significantly on other systems with dedicated graphics, depending on other configuration elements, display/graphics settings, and/or software operating environments. So it'd be a handy option to have as a whole in case anyone would be interested in customizing the behavior of the indicator to better accommodate their preference and system configurations.

What I'll plan on doing is setting up a custom option with the filename avlsettings.txt that can be created and placed in the game's install folder. Two values can be placed in the file to specify the taper rate and the alignment cap within the equation. The default value for taper will be 10.0 and the default value for the cap will be 0.0018 (representing the +/- variation factor tolerated by the game before it aligns the AVL value with directional velocity). If you'd like advanced access to a test build with such an option available, just send me a quick reminder e-mail in a day or two and I can send over the details.
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Re: Why can't i crash land into planets?

Post by HaK »

Well that would be fantastic then. Perhaps this could help other users experiencing more severe effects from this as you say. You sir are a legend among developers. I hope this was helpful to anyone else viewing this. (i must say the game runs great and looks fantastic with no visual glitches on my integrated graphics) Sounds great my sincerest thanks Vice, i could be the guinea-pig persay to see how well it corrects my tiny issue as confirmation to anyone else wondering how well the tweaking works. Excellent service and commitment. :D
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Re: Why can't i crash land into planets?

Post by Marvin »

Vice wrote: What I'll plan on doing is setting up a custom option with the filename avlsettings.txt that can be created and placed in the game's install folder.
:P I've read most of this thread but I think at least some players would appreciate a Reader's Digest version, summarizing the above correspondence and how it pertains to the custom option. If not here, then in the game's ReadMe file.
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Re: Why can't i crash land into planets?

Post by HaK »

Hehe, yeah this new function may very easily be missed by players experiencing the problem due to the misleading title "Why can't i crash" and would rather have been better titled as "HaK's FaQ's" (even has a nice ring to it) :D

Never knew this thread would grow into what it has. I also did not help matters with talking about a mystery 2nd FVL on the bottom left monitor which was in fact the AVL the entire time. (lack of sleep and not enough coffee)

Perhaps a newer better titled thread "How to adjust or reduce AVL fluctuations" Would be necessary and far easier for people to find. (with additions added to the readme for the new customising option too)

In short : Does your AVL fluctuate or dip or rise, when using all forms of camera viewing (insert, home, page up, end) or cyclng the HUD display (H) In inertial or IDS mode then this new custom option being created by Vice could correct or alleviate the symptoms. :D
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Re: Why can't i crash land into planets?

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I have however discovered something else. Has anyone else noticed that there is a small oddity when using the autopilot while watching your spaceship from behind (pushing V once) If you select a target and you choose to use autopilot, the autopilot obviously corrects your direction and heads directly for the point you chose. It uses the afterburners to get up to speed. In my case 6208 and then at that point it stabilizes and i'm guessing it automatically switches over to Inertial mode as your fuel no longer gets consumed. However the display does not reflect IDS or INERTIAL mode changing (possibly due to auto-pilot controlling everything itself) But what i noticed is, the afterburner visual effect does not turn off when using the autopilot, even though it is clearly now using inertial mode at its top speed and not consuming any more fuel yet the it still displays the afterburners blasting away. Yes you can turn off the afterburner visual yourself by clicking the space bar which still keeps you in auto-pilot mode but then changes the left screen display to inertial and therefore disables the afterburner visual, if you press space again the visual reappears. (even though you in inertial mode due to autopilot and consuming no fuel) Also another small thing, when you hold down the afterburner button (tab by default) Your ship shakes around displaying the increase in speed due to this cool visual. I see that when auto-pilot uses the afterburners, you don't see the shaking speed visual. (once again nothing game breaking and i'm guessing other people should be able to replicate this)
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Re: Why can't i crash land into planets?

Post by Vice »

A couple of things there. The autopilot doesn't use the afterburner, the engine will only flare up to maximum cruise level, saving fuel that way. And the IDS is not turned off by the autopilot, you simply stop burning fuel to accelerate when you reach target speed. There is no atmosphere in space to cause drag, so there is no need to continually burn fuel to maintain speed. Whether manual control or autopilot control, once you've reached a selected speed, the engine will turn off and you'll coast at the selected velocity.

The visual appearance of the engine flares when the autopilot is on at speed even when idle may be a recent phenomenon and shouldn't occur. I'll sort that for the next update. There are times when the flares are artificially added for effect/visual cue, but that shouldn't be one of them.
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Re: Why can't i crash land into planets?

Post by HaK »

Oh the visual effect looked similar as if i had pushed tab myself to use them, but i am mistaken as that is just the engine going to maximum cruise speed, but the ship accelerates so fast it seems as if it was the afterburners. When i am flying with no auto-pilot using IDS mode my top speed is only 630 something (with my current ship) Is that not my maximum cruise speed? (from holding down 'W' key.. or pushing maximum throttle '0' key) As it does not increase over the 630* unless i personally use the tab button to engage my afterburners. That was the only reason i thought the auto-pilot was engaging them due to the rapid increase of speed.

Yes the engine does shut off at the correct timing and the speed is constant, it's the visual of the engines working hard when they are infact off. I am running the visual effects at highest. I don't spot any visual issues, apart from the engine's flaring not disabling itself once at max cruise speed and no longer using fuel. (I can manually disable the engine flare's once at top speed myself by pushing space bar while auto-pilot is on) As the auto-pilot is not using the afterburners to speed up then please disregard my "screen shake effect" being missing as i was incorrect. Thanks Vice, if it's not an isolated event then glad to help.
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Re: Why can't i crash land into planets?

Post by HaK »

edit : I just discovered the ", and . " keys for inertial flight. So i can now go over the 630 limit while manually using inertial mode and not using my afterburners.
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Re: Why can't i crash land into planets?

Post by Vice »

Also keep in mind that the IDS can scale (the X factor displayed next to the indicator). So you can adjust how far up the velocity level your throttle setting goes by setting/changing the IDS scale level (X1 for default, X2, X3, and so on up to X9). The default numpad 7 and 9 keys adjust that. Your autopilot will use IDS scale also internally, which is why it will take your speed much higher than X1 only speeds.
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Re: Why can't i crash land into planets?

Post by HaK »

Oh i see, thank you very much that works exactly as you said. Perfect. Yes thank you for explaining that i understand now why the auto-pilot can achieve those speeds. Glad to know i can do it too. :D
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Re: Why can't i crash land into planets?

Post by HaK »

Hey everyone,

Just incase anyone was following along and wanted to know about the result of the new feature Vice added. It works perfectly and like an absolute charm and has eliminated my AVL fluctuations while using the camera (while flying straight in IDS or Inertial mode) With the latest test build, you simple add an "avlsettings.txt" file to your installion directory. It has 2 values on two lines. 10.0 and 0.0018 by default. All i had to do for my system specs at least (and integrated graphics) was to change the second value to 0.0200 (My numbers are now rock solid and don't fluctuate while simply using the camera views or the F10 cockpit view. Job well done Vice. Works great. :D
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Re: Why can't i crash land into planets?

Post by HaK »

Also happy to report... the engine flare showing it's idle state when in auto-pilot at max cruise speed has been corrected too. :D
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