MasterKnives
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![[*]](./images/iconic/default_icon.gif) posted on 1-4-2008 at 11:32 PM |
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Why only a 24 max player server?
With the sheer vastness of the game I think it would be awesome if the game could support players on a massive scale.
Much like what was done with freelancer.
I figured a dedicated quadcore server and 4 gigs of highgrade memory should be able to support at least 100 or 200 players?
thoughts?
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verbosity
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| posted on 1-4-2008 at 11:37 PM |
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it's less processor power and more bandwidth and packet loss that the issue.
so far the max of 24 hasn't been reached, but once there is traffic that would require it, its possible that Vice would consider testing expanding
this.......
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Vice
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| posted on 1-5-2008 at 12:16 AM |
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If connections could handle it  Verb is right, the limit is parimarily a
result of what is possible with current connections. This game requires a very high level of bandwidth needs that many other games (many of which are
RTS or similar slow exchange rate point-n-click-n-wait-n-watch control only gameplay games) do not have, largely just due to its design (I can provide
some technical details on this if you're interest, just would probably bore most people Enough players connect with systems below the minimum requirements that it effects others in sessions with just several players
(causing more lag, object jumping, etc). If 24 becomes a major obstacle and enough players have the systems with ultra-high speed connections needed
to support it, the limit could potentially be raised.
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verbosity
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| posted on 1-5-2008 at 12:29 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Vice
If connections could handle it Verb is right, |
Sorry I wasn't meaning to speak for you, there had been a similar question recently.
| Quote: | | I can provide some technical details on this if you're interest, just would probably bore most people |
While no doubt its over my head, thats something that would interest me...
out of interest, would reducing other factors ( the number of AI ships or their reputation system for instance) affect the bandwidth usage?
[Edited on 1-5-2008 by verbosity]
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Sledge
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| posted on 1-5-2008 at 12:34 AM |
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Is there a way to ping players so admin can know who is causing lag?
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MasterKnives
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| posted on 1-5-2008 at 12:44 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Vice
If connections could handle it Verb is right, the limit is parimarily a
result of what is possible with current connections. This game requires a very high level of bandwidth needs that many other games (many of which are
RTS or similar slow exchange rate point-n-click-n-wait-n-watch control only gameplay games) do not have, largely just due to its design (I can provide
some technical details on this if you're interest, just would probably bore most people Enough players connect with systems below the minimum requirements that it effects others in sessions with just several players
(causing more lag, object jumping, etc). If 24 becomes a major obstacle and enough players have the systems with ultra-high speed connections needed
to support it, the limit could potentially be raised. |
We could always throw up a server at a local data center and get a dedicated server running. Bandwith really shouldn't be a big concern then.
It seems to me that this game has potential for massive online capabilities.
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verbosity
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| posted on 1-5-2008 at 01:39 AM |
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| Quote: |
Is there a way to ping players so admin can know who is causing lag? |
not at the moment, It could be possible for me to build something that would allow that, though I'd need to speak with Vice....
a recent update to the system has limited the effect that can be caused by pilots who are running dial-up or similarly 'iffy' connections.
| Quote: | We could always throw up a server at a local data center and get a dedicated server running. Bandwith really shouldn't be a
big concern then.
It seems to me that this game has potential for massive online capabilities. |
Agreed on both points, but I would imagine that would be for some point in the future. From what I know and have discussed with my brother in-law (
big Cisco network techie ) it should be feasible to have a hosted server that could handle upto 50 pilots. but it would need to be tested, and I
imagine there would need to be some changes in how the game worked, so I wouldn't expect it to happen in the very near future.
while ER does have the potential, and Vice once mentioned an interest in a SW3D MMO, if MP was shown to justify it. Therefore may I suggest a
path....
1. a 24/7 dedicated server ( tick  )
2. a scaled measurement of pilot hours per day and maximium pilots online
( I'm recording stats though I've not finished the reporting system [Doh!] ) though for the record my server has recorded 8 pilots online at one
time, 15 pilots online in 24 hours, and my record pilot hours is in the region of 48ph in one 24 hour period.
3. once there is regular ( say once a month or more) need for expanded capacity beyond 24 pilots on one or more servers, this would probably be the
time for serious development and consideration of expansion of capacity.
Beyond that, I'd like to make a point. This is just my opinion, but for a serious MP community, what we do not need is the pilots
who do fly regularly to be split across many servers.
The dedicated server program is there for anyone to use, and it is used by gamers to host their own clan sessions etc, but hosting for the sake of it?
It means you can't fly and your diluting the pool of pilots out there. Sure if your hosting for you a 20 mates - funky! But if its for Kudos? Plan on
spending a lot of time with it empty
ok ok so I'm biased, I'm going to end my rant now............
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rivalin
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| posted on 1-5-2008 at 02:19 AM |
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To be honest Verb is right, obviously he doesn't want to be rude so when people come on here wanting to host servers he tries to help them out, but I
guess what he's too polite to say is that until we start having issues with servers being full, people should just let there be the one server.
Renegades is never going to get tested to its limit without servers being filled one at a time, rather than having several one pilot servers.
Obviously everyone appreciates the effort people put into running servers, but aside from a main server and maybe a backup, any more are somewhat
counter productive.
(although obviously it's different if you're setting up a server for a group of friends or something.)
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Vice
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| posted on 1-5-2008 at 03:02 AM |
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| Quote: | | Sorry I wasn't meaning to speak for you, there had been a similar question recently. |
No problem, there has indeed been a lot of repeat questions lately, sometimes even spaced by just a few days with the thread subjects quite close to
each other. I'd add them to the FAQ, but that seems to get overlooked as well.
| Quote: | | out of interest, would reducing other factors ( the number of AI ships or their reputation system for instance) affect the
bandwidth usage? |
Lowering the number of AI ships would reduce some of the bandwidth needs. But EVERY time this comes up, there seems to be
virtually unanimous negative feedback about it by the people who use multiplayer the most. They want AI's, plenty of them, they want PvE gameplay,
and they use it, so the AI's really should remain and their numbers not 'reduceable'. This is the first game in the Evochron series that has
received virtually no complaints about the numbers of AI ships in the multiplayer mode.
| Quote: | | Is there a way to ping players so admin can know who is causing lag? |
You can usually tell who is the primary cause when they join and the lag does not go away. However, the 1.228 update now monitors this and will
auto kick players who are dropping/losing/delaying too many packets causing the lag. If one particular player's ship is bouncing around a lot,
making them difficult to hit, then they are likely on a slow connection and/or a slow system and can be kicked from the game if desired.
| Quote: | | We could always throw up a server at a local data center and get a dedicated server running. Bandwith really shouldn't be a
big concern then. |
Bandwidth with this game is a concern, even on a LAN, you can only throw around so many packets (which in this game, are even encoded to reduce
size) before problems surface. The game has to maintain gamestate for a seamless universe that can have players in a variety of locations all with AI
ships near and it has to match with any other player(s) that come in range of another... that's a lot of data to manage even for high speed
connections. If the game was not real-time player controlled and instead, was just something that the player clicked some options, then the computer
did all the 'playing'/'control' during combat/flying, then it wouldn't be as much of a problem, then hundreds, thousands, even more players could
all join in a single universe since the clients could wait a few seconds before receiving a reply as to how the computer decided to play the
game for them. But in a real-time game, with real-time player control, rapid packet exchange is critical.
| Quote: | | It seems to me that this game has potential for massive online capabilities. |
Potential, sure, although the current system has managed fine for the current volume of players. I am watching though and plan to be ready to make
adjustments as needed if/when they are feasible to do so.
Verb and Rivalin make a good point, it's generally better to have more players than servers. Then if/when servers start to become overloaded and
exceed their capacity, or clans need their own, more could be added to meet the need(s).
[Edited on 1-5-2008 by Vice]
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Sledge
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| posted on 1-5-2008 at 04:07 AM |
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Unfortunately your going to see a lot of servers very soon. I am the first of a succession of FL server ops looking for a new game to replace the
aging Freelancer. I understand your concerns, but I feel opposite. These communities have large established player bases (I alone have over 1,000
players registered on my forum) and most are role play based. The existing ER server(s) have nothing to fear. We're not creating servers to try to
fight over a few players, we're bringing our own players. In fact, existing servers may benefit because there are always players looking for leagues
and tournaments. Some of these guys are proud of their status as pilots.
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Vice
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| posted on 1-5-2008 at 05:51 AM |
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Unfortunately? Nah, it would certainly be a good thing if more players
start participating. It may even be necessary to 'shard' servers for 12-16 players or something, if some players can only use sub-minimum systems
or connections (and I've been surprised by how many there have been so far). So more servers won't necessarily be a negative, it pretty much
depends on how many players want to participate, where, and with what kinds of systems/connections.
Also, don't forget that you can also host a session in the game directly (it includes a virtual server mode that works very much like the server
program) and this is the preferred method if you want to participate in the game yourself or just want to run a session for a shorter period of time,
say, a few hours or something. Details are in the instructions.
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verbosity
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| posted on 1-5-2008 at 12:44 PM |
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an apology
I can kinda get a bit possessive and vitriolic in regards to the servers, something I really don't have a right to be. To explain I've spent over
the past year running a 24/7 server for Evochron ( before renegades I ran one for Alliance).
I wasn't saying that we shouldn't have any other servers, but given the pilot levels that we have at the moment ( and have had in the past) my point
still stands.
That's not to discourage someone hosting, and you'll find that I'm often around to assist, and sure if your bringing along your own players that's
even better .
My concern is not is regards to the usage of my own server, but for the health of ER's MP situation, I'd rather be able to spend more time in-game
than be stuck outside hosting, so in some regards I'd welcome another dependable 24/7 server.
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rivalin
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| posted on 1-5-2008 at 01:33 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Mike
Unfortunately your going to see a lot of servers very soon. I am the first of a succession of FL server ops looking for a new game to replace the
aging Freelancer. I understand your concerns, but I feel opposite. These communities have large established player bases (I alone have over 1,000
players registered on my forum) and most are role play based. The existing ER server(s) have nothing to fear. We're not creating servers to try to
fight over a few players, we're bringing our own players. In fact, existing servers may benefit because there are always players looking for leagues
and tournaments. Some of these guys are proud of their status as pilots. |
I don't think Verb meant servers that come with plenty of players, but rather about randomly set up servers that are always empty. If you go back and
read the previous posts you'll see it stated several times that obviously servers that are set up for specific groups of players are great. Noone
here thinks the opposite to you, everyone wants more players and more servers, they just want to make sure they're all full!
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tha_rami
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| posted on 1-5-2008 at 04:08 PM |
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I agree with rivalin. Verb needs not to give an apology, as he said: we're glad to have full servers, just not 'servers for the heck of it'. Can't
wait to see how the FL community reacts to ER, it might just mean a whole new era of further development of the Starwraith series.
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Xcat
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| posted on 1-5-2008 at 07:48 PM |
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Us freelancers.... well we are a quiet and humble folk... just don't feed the monkey.
On Topic: Reliable 24/7 Servers should start springing up soon as the FL community starts its migration. Many mods and changes are in store
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verbosity
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| posted on 1-5-2008 at 08:37 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Xcat
On Topic: Reliable 24/7 Servers should start springing up soon as the FL community starts its migration. |
hey there already is one!!!
LoL
Looking forward to it, We've been expecting you.............
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Hercules
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 posted on 1-7-2008 at 09:19 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Sledge
Unfortunately your going to see a lot of servers very soon. I am the first of a succession of FL server ops looking for a new game to replace the
aging Freelancer. I understand your concerns, but I feel opposite. These communities have large established player bases (I alone have over 1,000
players registered on my forum) and most are role play based. The existing ER server(s) have nothing to fear. We're not creating servers to try to
fight over a few players, we're bringing our own players. In fact, existing servers may benefit because there are always players looking for leagues
and tournaments. Some of these guys are proud of their status as pilots. |
Good to see Sledge here . . . He speaketh the truth. 
I was a player and active Freelancer Modder (Made new 3D ships, graphics . . . etc) Not a server operator.
There were FL servers that could host 50 and some 10. The up side was there were a lot of them and Dial-uppers could find a home on a
low-occ server . . . or get cursed off the big ones for "skip-lagging" everyone else.
I see A LOT of good things here.
One is "enthusiasts" (Like me) Hey, Microsoft and me are not on speaking terms as of late. Here I can talk to creators . . . I'm happy-happy about
that.
The games here were made better. Not tossed into a box cause the deadline was up and use file formats from an alternate dimension.
I am thinking of hosting the thing myself as soon as the cash flow improves. Hell, I can play when I want to . . . right? 
So, thank you for all this and I hope I can help out in some small way.
Regards
Hercules
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tha_rami
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| posted on 1-7-2008 at 03:09 PM |
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Welcome, Hercules. I'm sure you'll have a good time here .
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Dio
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| posted on 1-24-2008 at 04:52 AM |
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I played FL alot myself, and also currently still play Allegiance (though its lobby and round based). I think ER surely has what it takes to get some
of my old pilot friends back in the mood to thrust around popping off missiles. Most of my crew also played Space Cowboy extensively and since that's
down for US play, we need a way to fly. I have already invited several people, and hope to cram verbs server with more people... Hope to see you guys
on soon ^^
And... if I log on and see 23 other people and I can still play decently, I'll be so happy I'll pee myself. (maybe ;p)
[Edited on 1-24-2008 by Dio]
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verbosity
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| posted on 1-24-2008 at 06:20 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Dio
I have already invited several people, and hope to cram verbs server with more people... Hope to see you guys on soon ^^
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Please do..
| Quote: | And... if I log on and see 23 other people and I can still play decently, I'll be so happy I'll pee myself. (maybe ;p)
[Edited on 1-24-2008 by Dio] |
I may do that myself
[Edited on 1-24-2008 by verbosity]
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